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Forum Index : Windmills : New V.A.W.T. design
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Energy Creator Newbie  Joined: 26/12/2011 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 11 |
Hello all, I am building on a V.A.W.T. and I like to share my design with all of you. 
I don’t know if it’s gone work? But it’s the idea that the blades will automatically adjust by high wind speeds, so your generator will never turn to fast. 
If the VAWT spins to fast the centrifugal forges will lift the weight and the blades change its position , so it catch less wind or will even brake. With the weight you can set the maximum RPM for your generator. 
The prototype is made of Polyether and steal. The directional scoops of the outer ring are not installed yet. But you se the groves where they gone be placed. 
The directional scoops of the outer ring will direct the wind in to the blades. The back coming blades are not pushing in to the wind. 
Whit this setup I hope to collect more wind, so the VAWT will turn faster by low winds. 
The structure is like 3 doors you can open for easy maintenance 
The Blade 
The Blade design is just a gush, no idea if it’s working. Therefore also the open structure of the VAWT so we can chance the blades easily. This design is just a idea! I don’t know if it will work? There is only one way to find out. Just build it! I hope you like the design? If you se some flaws , please tell me! Cheers Brian Energy Creator www.energy-creator.com |
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MacGyver Guru  Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Brian Welcome to the 4m. Overspeeding will likely not be an issue unless you run this in a wind tunnel. If you're going to use the "directional scoops" in the outer ring, you'll do better to leave the "blades" flat as the outer ring will create what is called a "vortex" and it will automatically spin the air. Just make sure there is a clear exit out the top or bottom, so the incoming air has a place to escape or it will try to compress and just barely turn. I built one like this about 40 years ago, but I usd one single blade made of sheet Styrofoam held in an aluminum channel frame mounted at its center through a timpkin bearing at the bottom. It was about 4 feet tall and 6 feet wide and gave plenty of both torque and speed with little to no noise. Unfortunately, it was ugly and got complaints from neighbors, so it went the way of most projects and was canibalized for other projects. It looks like you've put a lot of time and effort into your idea; it looks well built. If it's performance you're after, flatten out the blades and open the top and it'll fly like the wind. By the way, Sprect U Nederlanse? There used to be another Dutch fellow on here named Peter Dingenes, but he's not posted in a couple of years. He was also very clever and a delight to follow; I miss him. EDIT: I took the time to watch your videos and I noted with the second one, charging a drained car battery, it didn't get much above 13 volts until it was at almost 800 rpm. Even then it was only 0.7 amps according to your narration. If you were to use this on a wind turbine, it would have to be fairly heavy winds or would have to employ the use of gears or pulleys in some form of a "transmission" which is pretty much a "no-no" in the wind turbine arena. I think what you may have overlooked in the axial-flux alternator is its ability to spin with no load until it gets to it's "cut-in" voltage. To charge a 12-volt car battery, the cut-in voltage would be just above 12 volts and 13 volts would certainly do it. Unfortunately, at less than one amp, it will take a week or more of constant operation to charge it fully. I haven't purused your entire Web site as yet, but just thought I'd point out that all the time and energy spent by all the folks on this and other alternative-energy sites was done for a reason. In the world of wind turbine electric generation, it doesn't get much better than an axial flux unless maybe you can build one of your generators for peanuts (not llikely). Using the rig you've shown in your first post would be capable of driving a generator like the one in your Web site's second video if the turbine were sized up by several times as well as perhaps employng a transmission to increae the input shaft speed, although, like I said earlier, gears and such are frowned upon because of their inherent waste of energy. . . . . . Mac (Dutch herritage; head and shoulders taller than all the rest) Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Brian Me again, with yet another thought. This link appears to show some misinformation regarding flux return pathways. Is there any way you could post a more-accurate picture of how your magnets' flux pathways cut through coils, completing the magnetic circuit? As it's shown, the circuits are all "open" about the circumference, whereas in an axial-flux alternator, each N-S junction is arranged so as to show a completed or closed magnetic circuit. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Energy Creator Newbie Joined: 26/12/2011 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 11 |
Thank’s MacGyver
We have sometime these big storms in the Netherlands, a few time a year, don’t want to worry that the VAWT will spin out of control. I have to place the thing on my roof, and don’t want it to catch fire ore something? It’s a very interesting suggestion of keeping the blades flat, for the vortex! I am very happy, it will cut down the cost and building time. 
The top and bottom stays open for the wind to escape. P.S. I don’t know any Peter Dingenes. Sorry for that, like to meet the guy, sounds like I can learn a lot of him. About the generators on my site, these generators I have used to explain the working of the coil in easy to follow steps, the output was not that important at the time. But all kind of people were asking about the output of the generators I make in the movie, so I put them to the test. Yes the first generators have a crappie output, these were only build to show you how the winding works! Only Generator-3 and the micro generators have a reasonable output. If I knew in the beginning that people were fixating on the output of the generator and not looking at the efficient way to make the coil who gives the output in the first place! I would made the movie in a differed way. 
But hey, I am just a DIY Dude try his best, I am not good in selling stuff. I am already working on the update movie to explane more, free for all who bought the DVD. About the link, I didn’t show the flux ways so you can see the working principle better. I only wanted to show that You can use a lot more copper wire by using the same magnets with my coil winding, therefore you can generate more energy. But maybe your right, I have to explain it better. But try to make this with a Axial Flux generator. Lol 
This little windmill haze 2 “Qwadro Copter” spare blades $7,- It haze 48 disk magnets of $0.65 is in total $31.20 $10,- of copper wire, some polyether an 2 bearings. Ok it not give you much, only 0,5 Amp charging power by 20 mille hour wind with these blades. But if you have a sailing boot it will keep the battery full for the weekend. There water tight as well, with a boot propeller you can just throw them in a river wile camping. About the V.A.W.T. I don’t want a bulky generator under there, for this one I don’t I have much of a option. But if it works I want to make 2 coil rings and place them like this. 
Thanks for your comments I will keep this post up to date with my building process. Any suggestion is Welkom. Cheers Brian Energy Creator www.energy-creator.com |
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mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Hello Brian, Welcome to the vawt world of problems and dismal failures, at least this is the popular openion seems like. I'm interested in you'r ideas...I am also working on a vawt, or atleast I was working on one. I have'nt gotten back to it for a few mounths now. You may wish to reveiw my posts of the project, "Yawt, going in a big way", you may have to page back a few pages to find the last post. Keep up the great work, I like you'r ideas, and welcome to the forum. I'll be following you'r progress. Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| Energy Creator Newbie Joined: 26/12/2011 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 11 |
Thanks’ Mac46 I saw your post "Yawt, going in a big way" Wow you really put a lot of work in it! The thing is really Big, like to se it finished! 
Isn’t it hard to make several blades all the same? I cant do it! 
I can only make 1 blade, make a mold of it, and than I can make them all the same. Lol Hope I can put the wind directional scoops in there soon! Cheers Brian Energy Creator |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Hello Brian, I'd like to see it finished too!! along with all the other jobs that I have going right now. "Too many irons on the fire" I guess that its possible to make two wings the same...I made 3 of them, all though they were slightly different weights. (I used a jigg)(and alot of measureing) Interesting about makeing a "mold" and just what and how do you pour/make you'r new wings...what type of material? release agent? ect. I thought about useing a liquid foam with a structrural frame inside, but decided to try makeing the wings like a model air plane wing...only much larger. Brian, there are more than just a few "yawt builders" here on the forum, I like you'r ideas and you'r project. Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| electrondady1 Senior Member  Joined: 12/02/2009 Location: CanadaPosts: 208 |
hello brian. i want to compliment you on you little sausage shaped alternator . the one you hold in your hand with a propeller on the end , that is a beautiful little machine to produce power. however, i just hate your vertical windmill design.
the reason is, the object you are showing us, with the saucer shapes on the top and bottom, and all those horizontal and vertical steel pipes etc, all of that, is not your windmill. the actual windmill is not shown. the way i am looking at it, the volume of material you have invested in the support structure is about 8 times as much as you have invested in the actual vawt mechanism. what i am saying is, even with the increase in power that the peripherals may produce. it would not compete with the output of 8 other stand alone vawt mills. it's just a style i guess but at the design school i attended the idea was to remove any parts that were not necessary. and when you had a devise that worked well with the minimum of parts you were done. |
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| Energy Creator Newbie Joined: 26/12/2011 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 11 |
Thanks Mac46 It’s a little difficult to explain how I make a mold of a blade, but ill will make a movie of it. 
First I make the shape of ordinary plaster. Than I make a mold of it whit topcoat and polyether with glass fibber. The mold is reinforced whit steal bars against deforming. Polyether can shrink 5%, a long flat shape will become a U shape without the steal bares in the mold. I use mold release spray or Vaseline spray but Vaseline spray its very greasy. I will make a movie of it! 
Cheers Brian |
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| Energy Creator Newbie Joined: 26/12/2011 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 11 |
Thanks electrondady1 I hate my VAWT to sometimes, The thing cost me way to much time and money!
Your right the saucer shaped rings are the outer rings what will direct the wind flow, its not the windmill itself. But the windmill is shown in the 1e picture in this post (the thing with the golden blades) is the windmill itself. But its only a test model, the new blades don’t fit in the (middle thing) rotor? I have to build a new rotor for the blades what fits nice whit the outer rings. So, still lots to do… 
Cheers Brian |
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| govertical Guru Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 383 |
Hi, great project. I really like your idea for the stator placement for the PMAs. Have you considered using a MPPT controller for your system. It will make matching the PMA to your turbine much easier. Here is a video that explains why it is needed. Keep up the great work. I look forward to your future success. You have some very good ideas. why a MPPT controller is needed just because your a GURU or forum administer does not mean your always correct :) |
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| Energy Creator Newbie Joined: 26/12/2011 Location: NetherlandsPosts: 11 |
Thanks Govertical 
I really like the YouTube movie, thanks MPPT, never know from it’s existents?
But relay want to have the thing, I can boost my generators whit it!! 
Do you have a link for the schematics? Or where can I buy one? Thanks again Cheers Brian Energy-Creator |
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| govertical Guru Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 383 |
video of Steve’s MPPT project at windgen.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JcC--1urUw Hi, it is a newer idea and they are hard to find. I am currently trying to design one, but my skills are limited. I am building a test circuit; DC to DC step down converter; so I can better understand how the MPPT algorithm works. Warpspeed has been helping me a lot. I started a thread in the Electronics section of this forum. http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4593&PN =1&get=last#49125 videos of my MPPT project http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3dLzZZ5jKQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdnsGDhNH4w I hopes this helps. video van MPPT project Steve's op windgen.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JcC--1urUw Hoi, het is een nieuwere idee en ze zijn moeilijk te vinden. Ik ben momenteel bezig om het ontwerp, maar mijn vaardigheden zijn beperkt. Ik bouw een test circuit; DC naar DC step down converter, dus ik kan beter te begrijpen hoe de MPPT-algoritme werkt. WarpSpeed is het helpen me veel. Ik begon een draad in de elektronica sectie van dit forum. http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4593&PN =1&get=last~~V # 49125 video's van mijn MPPT project http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3dLzZZ5jKQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdnsGDhNH4w Ik hoopt dat dit helpt. just because your a GURU or forum administer does not mean your always correct :) |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
This whole vawt thing is just.. I have tested and read about small windpower for several years. If you really.., want to use windpower, to make energy, you must do your "homework". Please read these; http://www.wind-works.org/index.html http://www.scoraigwind.com/ There is and has been several test fields, for small windpower. These vawt units have NOT produced energy, in these test fields !! Antero |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
anteror, It seems as though some power must be produced, else why does my batteries stay charged? I agree that a vawt is not as efficient as a vert, but still not the lost cause you protray it to be. Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| govertical Guru Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 383 |
Hi, are you familiar with a MPPT controller? It is a newer idea. Yes, most VAWT are slow. They require a PMA that will have a high output at a low RPM. That is the problem. A PMA with high output at a low RPM has a high internal resistance. A PMA with a high internal resistance act like a electric brake the faster you spin it. The solution is adding a MPPT controller to the system. It pulses the output to the load, and converts a high voltage with low current from the input to a lower voltage with higher current at the output. The technology is changing. I have posted video examples. I hope this helps. just because your a GURU or forum administer does not mean your always correct :) |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Yes I agree that verticals(VAWT) do have a place and are not a complete waste of ones efforts. If you have access to a open site then you cant beat a conventional HAWT. Compared to a VAWT, HAWT's are easier to build, easier to scale up and cheaper. Honestly if you have open space, or a nice tower, dont waste time with a VAWT other than for the fun factor. But, VAWT's work very well in locations where a HAWT is useless, such as between buildings, in valleys or on turbulent hill tops. Anywhere that the wind is gusty and changes direction frequently, like every few seconds. A VAWT with a tail is pointless. The VAWTs advantage is it can use gusty wind from different directions, where a HAWT ( or a VAWT with a tail ) needs to hunt for the wind before it can start making power. I've used both types, but at my new place, because its basically a open field with a wind direction change maybe once a week, I'll be using HAWT's for making power. However down near my creek I'll use a VAWT ( couple of oil drums style ) to pump water for irrigating. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| anteror Senior Member Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
Just read the real world results from all different test fields. Antero |
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| mac46 Guru Joined: 07/02/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 412 |
Everyone, The latest issue of (unnamed) wind power engineering and developement magizine has some interesting things to say about Vert mills, seems they are on a come back in the large industrial applications. Mac46 I'm just a farmer |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Attention VAWT Naysayers I'm in the process of buying a 5-acre ranch in Texas. When I've moved there, I'll be constructing a VAWT, which I designed and built on a small scale 40 years back. It works like a champ, but it needs to be pretty big to do any "useable" work. Mine will sport a flat blade with a dimension of from 2 to 4 feet wide and 15 feet or more long. It will spin horizontally with the axis at the center of the long dimension, splitting the blade into two ginormous halves. Think of holding two full sheets of plywood against the wind and you'll be in the vacinity of where this is going. The blade will be housed on a flat roof atop a ground-level tornado-proof (I hope) structure. The daily prarie wind in the middle of Texas blows 15 to 25 miles per hour all day long and often much of the night. Gusts go way higher. Building any windmill to stand up to these winds means it has to be beyond "robust". I intend building the structure, which will house the blade, bearings and the power generation gear out of concrete-filled block and steel. The structure will be buttressed on the outside by dirt shoved against the sides to make the finished contour 2:1 so fierce winds will glide over it (I hope). It will serve a dual purpose as a tornado-proof structure for storms as well as a power-generation room. Cost? Lets not go there. Suffice to say, I'll have the funds and I'm doing all the work myself. This will take time to construct. I'll do a build on the 4m with pictures and contet jabber as I proceede. Just hide and watch. I hope to move to the ranch around the first of September this year. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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