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Forum Index : Windmills : Intro from newbie and controller question
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moose4621 Newbie  Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Hi all, Newbie here. Been lurking for some time now, on and off. I started building a F&P based wind turbine some five years ago and have just this week finally got it flying. 
I know it's still not installed as well as it could be as it is currently on the top of an 8 metre octagonal steel light light pole found in many suburban streets but it needs to be twice that height for this location. I have an 8 metre length of 4" water pipe ear marked for the extension. I carved a set of blades from laminated plywood and then covered in carbon and glass epoxy composite. At 1200mm each I have a 2.4m dia three blader. The stator is a 60 series rewired for 48volt, (I forget the arrangement as it was done a few years ago but I have the details in the workshop somewhere. It seems to cut in at around 150 RPM or so. The rectifier is three 35 amp 400v bridge rectifiers. I'm still in testing mode at the moment and have them connected to a surplus set of 850 amp/hr 48 volt gel cells without a controller and am keeping a close eye on the voltage. As you would expect, nothing is going to happen too quickly with this gennie, especially since I have only measured 100watt max so far! My main system is a solar array connected to a Plasmatronic PL60 controller which can accomodate a wind gennie with up to 30amp dump load directly. (without external relay). The batteries are 1350a/h wet cells at 48volt. Once the wind gennie proves itself, it will be spliced into this system. I know I have at least a couple of problems. 1. Even though I decogged by twisting the poles, and later by rounding the poles, it still has significant cogging properties which prevent it from starting at lower wind speeds but above cut in speed. (hope that makes sense). 2. I haven't done the math yet but the gennie is currently sending wild ac down to the rectifier about 80m away via 15 amp extension leads. I'm sure this is causing some loss but I was reluctant to spend the dollars on cable and trenching through rock until I was confident that it would be worth it. My initial questions are: 1. I remember seeing data somewhere that showed the 80 series to be more productive in an 48volt configurations. Has anyone got real results along these lines? And any idea where I can get one? 2. While a dump load seems to be the commonly accepted method of controlling the wind gennie after charge is reached, it seems to make sense to me to be able to brake the gennie by shorting it and thereby preventing overcharge and saving on wear and tear at the same time but I can't seem to find a controller that does this. Is there a reason why this is a bad idea? 3. has anyone tried a pm motor speed controller to momentarily engage after a minimum wind speed is reached to force a start on one of these f&p things to overcome the cogging? Maybe an arduino controller could achieve this? Regards Moose. He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi Moose, welcome to the forum. Yes the 80 series is a better stator, but the 60 series is a lot better than nothing, it will get you started and you can keep an eye out for a 80 series, then upgrade at a later date. The 150RPM cut is a litle high, but good enough, so it sounds like the stator has been rewired OK for 48 volts. You can wire up a diversion controller instead of a dump controller. Shorting the windmill can be a bit harsh on the rectifiers and relay contacts, depending on how you've wired it. The best approach is to short all 3 phases together before the 3 phase recitifier. There has been discussion off and on for years about giving the windmill a little electrical kick too start it rotating in light winds, but nothing ever comes of it. Generally decogging, or larger low speed blades, do the trick, but yes, there are times when a little power could be gained if the turbine was running in light winds. Keep us posted on how you go. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Thanks Gizmo. I should point out that the cut in speed is a guesstimate as I don't have a Hz multimeter. 
I was thinking of putting a latching 3 phase contactor between the wind turbine and the rectifier to short the alternator at full charge. It sounds like a "diversion" controller is the go. I didn't know there was such a thing. I have played a little by momentarily zapping 12v across one of the phases during a light breeze and if the conditions are right, (and I pick the right phase), the prop will rotate enough to start and then keep running until the breeze drops off again. That's what makes me think about a controller, ie arduino, connected to a wind speed input device that can shove a few seconds of 3phase motor drive up the line when the conditions are right. Something I might play with if I get time. Mean while, I took a couple of shot this evening to decorate this post with as I kow how much I like to see pickies. 
The size of the tail is another concern of mine. It was sized according to Hugh Piggot's book but I see most of you guy's have much smaller tails. He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi Moose Nice looking set of blades you have there! Good work. But your tower is leaning to the left a bit 
You can go smaller in the tail, but dont get any closer. The longer the tail boom, the better, it has better leverage and holds the turbine into the wind better. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Thank Gizmo for the compliment re the blades. In a previous life I was into aircraft composites and so these blades where a cinch. I embarrassed myself yesterday when I discovered after owning a multimeter for more than ten years that it does in fact have a frequency setting.  I know I have looked before and cursed it for not having Hz but yesterday it miraculously appeared in faint red text. 
This was just prior to me discovering that the same multimeter is reading around 10% low on volts.  And I now have no faith in any of it's readings. So while I was very unhappy with the measured output of my f&p mill. my frustration may be ill founded.
As for the leaning tower, it was late evening, ie, after rum o'clock and everything seems to lean by then. He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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yahoo2 Guru  Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Gudday moose, Am I looking at your photo right? There seems to be a lot of unsupported shaft behind the hub. May be something to look at upgrading when you decog the rotor. cheers yahoo I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
we've had a bit of wind now and I have to say I'm dissapointed. The best I could get out of it is 3.3 amps @ 53 volts and I saw the blades over run the alternator once. The furling seems to take place at the right wind speed but for some reason it oversped at one point but I was too far way to see if the tail was furled. I sure heard the blades though. No damage done though. Overall performance is well under expectation and if that's all I can get, then it's not worth pursuing. Maybe I was expecting too much of the F&P or maybe I've got modifications to make but I have regularly read claims of 400 - 700 watts out of these things but my mill will never produce that in it's current form. Where too now! He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
175 watts isn't too bad for a 60 series stator, but I'm sure it can be improved, you just need to make a few modifications and see how they affect the output. The 150rpm cut in is a little high. Do you remember exactly how it was wired, using this page as a guide? http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/FPRewire.asp Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Hi Glenn I went and had a look in the workshop for the wiring diagram I used but all I can find is the ones I didn't use. I know it was one of the diagrams on the page you linked to above but I cannot remember which one. (A symptom of age).
I do remember spending some time researching various wiring methods before choosing the one on the link above but I guess that's no help. I can't even tell you how many poles it has. I really don't know where I should go from here. He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi Moose Well 175 watts is a lot better than no watts, and it survived some good winds, so its a working turbine, with room for improvement. You need some way to measure wind speed, so you can tell if any changes you make are for the better or not. What about building a anemometer? Also, time to look around for a 80 series stator, the 60 series are OK, but the 80 series is much better. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Moose, The 60s in my opinion are not even worth the effort and you will be lucky to get 200W , 80s and 100s are the ones to go for especially for 48v . The last duals I built with a 100 and 80 were by far the best combination and had twisted poles and wired in 2x7p with cap doublers and easily got up over 800W , if it is 80s you use then one in star and one in delta is a good combination to cover all wind conditions. I have a few dual stator bearing mounts laying arround if you want to PM me as well as some 100s & 80s motors but in my opinion with that great tower you have there it is a waste not to get the best out of it and a dual is the best way to go if you want to stay with the F&P . |
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BobMann Senior Member  Joined: 30/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 134 |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Bob , you use a modified NEO magnet rotor which can give more power but at the cost of more cogging and increased iorn drag which reduces low wind performance. Also to get the 1000w from memory you would have had it spinning at high RPMs and running at a high voltage throgh a MPPT grid inverter, these components are costly items and not your average wind RE set up , if someone was spennding the money on a wind/Gridtie system I would tell them to look for better/ purpose designed wind gens than using a old washing machine motor .. They are good cheap option for learning but for real output look at other options. Connect a total stock standard 60S to a 24v or 48v battery bank and see what you get , then connect your modified 60s as well as do the input torque VS output PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Hi fillm, thanks for your encouraging reply. I wasn't aware of the different stators when I got this one off fleabay and of course I got the worst one.
800 watts sounds more like it. What size fan is required for the dual stator 100's? Ideally I would prefer to utilize the blades I have. Obviously the 60s is not worth pursuing so I guess the choices are on of your dual setups or building a new axial flux alternator as per hugh's book. Both have comparable output apparently. Yeah, still the weak link in the system. I know the lead at each end is 3mm but you may be right about the ones in the middle. At the moment I cannot justify 3 x 6mm cables until I know I will get usable output. The spare batteries are currently sitting on a trailer so I could move them up the hill to the base of the tower for testing. Thanks for your help Phil and I will look more closely at your set up. And yes 4621 is my post code, only 3 hrs away! He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Hi Glenn, thanks for the encouragement. I am taking it easy at the nmoment after surgery on my hand so I might utilize that time to make an anenometer. I can see it being a necessity. Any suggestions? He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
Very impressive Bob. Sadly, (fortunately), I am not on the grid and the requirements for charging batteries at 48 - 60v are quite different. But thanks anyway. He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| BobMann Senior Member Joined: 30/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 134 |
To my brother from down under Yes I use NEO magnets my cogging is 14 OZ to break free at one ft not much at all and for 1000+ at 600 RPM but I make a Volt for every RPM too. I did use a Ginlong to do that test. Now I see you did not make a note on the Smart Controller?? So how can a Mannly Mann with one arm spin a PMA at 80 RPM and push 120 Watts back in to the grid?? Feel free to do the same test with one of yours and post the out come my handle is 8 inch from center. That is why the Smart Controller was made to make PMAs more effiction. The Smart Controller will sell in $ 400 range and it will charge batterys or work with low cost grid tie $170 like the one in the VID. Bob Mann |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Bob keep on topic please. Yes the smartdrive can make over 1000 watts in the right circumstances with a Neo stator, but here we are talking about a 48 volt battery system, and a turbine that could only supply 500 so watts into the alternator, so figures from a smart grid connected system are not relevant. Also making posts that are promoting something ($) that wont work in this situation is not on. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| moose4621 Newbie Joined: 10/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 30 |
I had a closer look at your work fillm and, WOW, very impressive. I bow to your skill and knowledge.
It seems by looking at your setup that my 2.4m fan probably won't drive a dual F&P. 
If that's true then I guess for now I should concentrate on a 80 or 100s or start work on a new alternator. I can see the merit in buying one of your systems off the shelf and getting some real power but I guess I'm a diehard do it yourselfer with a well equipped workshop so I'd rather stick with the "scrap heap challenge". Plus I am not sure I have enough consistency in the wind to justify the expense. Believe it or not my project so far has cost less than $100. I got the mast from a recycle centre for $20, the F&P for $45, the rectifiers and heat sink make up the rest. Everything else was junk or off cuts I already had lying around. I look forward to your input though. He who dies with the most toys, wins! |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
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