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Forum Index : Windmills : Yes I did it I stepped up to a HAWT
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BobMann Senior Member  Joined: 30/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 134 |
Hello I must say I love my VAWTs and they have worked just great but you guys have pushed me this way so I did it. I made the Mann Smart Drive retro kit for a HAWT. I used a 13 blade kit and them re disigned my oun comlpete HAWT. Here is some of the sales pitch i will clean up the post later. Looking for real power for you wind turbine The kind from Down Under The Mann Smart Drive retro kit. You can now upgrade your HAWT to A true 1000 WATT plus 3 phase Neo Magnet Power House. It only needs 14 inch LB of torque to break free. Fits those that have a Missouri WS mill use this retro kit. Includes 1 new 13 inch 3/8 Aluminum plate (no need to paint) with bolt holes for the Raptor like blades and the bolt hole for the Down Under Blades The GE-222 blade profile has been used by wind turbine builder Windcharger for many years. It’s a proven performer with good all round performance. The GE-222 profile is now available for the aftermarket wind turbine industry 
I added some tricks to the new tail I will post them later Bob Mann |
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| Jarbar Senior Member Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 224 |
Bob,I admire your enthusiasm that's for sure.Good luck with your projects. Anthony.  "Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father "Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru  Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Bob Really looks good I look forward to some performance figures. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Atta boy, Bob! . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Barry T Coles Senior Member Joined: 30/07/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 109 |
That’s a seriously serious set of blades. I need to learn from the mistakes of others. I dont have the time to make them all myself. |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1344 |
A. there is no offset of the genset from the tower B. no angle on the tail for furling C. no tilt on the blades from not hitting the tower All those points point towards a good build on a turbine build so why leave them out on a commercial design ?????????? Just Curious Bryan |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Yeah,,,, I looked at those pic's for a while ,,, Bob, Me thinks you need to explain a few things for us knuckleheads downunder , wadda ya think ?? Bushboy Bushboy |
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| BobMann Senior Member Joined: 30/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 134 |
Hello it started as a up grade to Missouri WS wind mill using your F&P motor. They have Thousands of the car Alternator wind mills in the field with that tail and mount and blades from 3 to 13 blades. The Simplicity of my Mann Smart Drive is the fix for these low power units. For A. there is no offset of the genset from the tower There is a group of three holes to off set the Mann Smart Drive B. no angle on the tail for furling we have a Smart Drive Box that Steve has build that will control the Smart Drive for speed and power and some very cool thing for wind farms Plus I have added a tail adjustment system 
C. no tilt on the blades from not hitting the tower A can be adjusted for that too but these blades have been run at very high speeds with out hitting the pole with this of set. See with my Drive we will not need high speed to do the same job. Bob Mann |
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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
Bob B. no angle on the tail for furling we have a Smart Drive Box that Steve has build that will control the Smart Drive for speed and power and some very cool thing for wind farms Plus I have added a tail adjustment system Nothing will control a smart drive, neos or not the design of the alternator does not lend itself to electric braking by shorting. In fact by my experiments when the load is disconnected and the stop switches thrown it actually speeds up! Plenty (most of us here) have been down that road and it doesnt work. Your "design" with lots of blades and a small diameter means that the preceeding blade will crash into the spill / turbulence from the previous blade, hence, wont spin anywhere near fast enough to generate the 1000W you hope for (again neo's or not). TO achieve 1000W out of a single stator you need a few things to happen, none of which are practical or cost effective on any kind of scale. again there are plenty of guys who have done exactly what it takes to achieve these numbers and at the end of the day you'll end up with a pig of a motor. Stick to claiming REAL numbers like 3-500W for single stator mills and lets see some runs on the board before the BS gets too far out of hand. Don't take that the wrong way -everyone loves seeing the f&p get a rev up but ultimately, no one is building any wind farms with them now or in the future as they have too many shortcomings to beat and with similar effort a decent axial flux machine can be built. Luck favours the well prepared |
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| BobMann Senior Member Joined: 30/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 134 |
Sorry you feel this way. First you need to look over every post in all forum,s All vid that show real testing at my shop with real outputs. for the blades these blades I can get here in the USA they have been tested to last. I show the 13 count because it shows well with testing we will find it it is the right match. For my claims 
Perry, you have so little faith in my modeling ability. :-) Just to get all the info out there, this is how I figure out the power (voltage, or current) from Bob's Smart Drive. 1) OCV = RPM * 1.0 (If I ever get more careful measurements, that 1.0 might be adjusted a little, but I think it's very close.) 2) Take a guess at R (resistance) of the alt, say 10 ohms or so. 3) Current (I) = (OCV - Vload) / R 4) Calculate R based on the current: R = 7.5 * (1 + .1 * I + .03/5*I^2 + .03/5 * I^3) The R you calculate and your initial guess will be different. Go back to Step 2 and Guess at an R somewhere between your initial guess and the results of #4. When your guess and the #4 results are close (0.1 ohms or so), you are done. This is the method I used to generate my graphs. Bob recently gave me two current measurements. The real results and the results of my model are as follows: 81 RPM Measured short ciruit current: 4.69A Predicted: 4.76A Error: 1.4% 103 RPM Measured short circuit current: 5.10A Predicted 5.29A Error: 3.7% For a model that I came up with in 45 minutes or I'd say that's a pretty good fit! All testing and math has been posted for all to chalange Sir to date I have had No one to say that the true math and testing is a scam. I get more emails from enginers on can I test it for my wind turbine design. Bob Mann wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Perry doing the test stressed every thing it ripped a 2 inch knelled steel hub that was pressed in to 1/2 thick aluminum top tube with set screws apart. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- A few facts about the test. For the 81 RPM test, 379 watts had to be put into turning the alt. For the 103 RPM test it was 525 watts. The torque for 81 RPM was 44nm (32 ft lbs). The torque for the 103 RPM test was 48 nm (35 ft lbs). That's some serious braking power. Please let use know if the testing is done wrong or were in the math it is not right. Bob Mann |
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niall1 Senior Member Joined: 20/11/2008 Location: IrelandPosts: 331 |
hi Bob "81 RPM Measured short ciruit current" ?? are you using short circuit current to rate the alt ? this is often done on ebay with car alt conversions and gives misleading output figures ...good for sales pitch though why not just run the mill ,measure the windspeed ....put a clamp meter on its load ...and right down both readings with a pen and paper ....bit old fashioned yes , but real niall |
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| BobMann Senior Member Joined: 30/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 134 |
This test is how the world tests there wind turbines motors real world stuff. It all was comes back to wing design how much wind you got too what RPM and can you keep it at that RPM and what cogging it takes to brake free. The problems I been having is I run high volts and finding the right grid tie sollution is very hard. Bob from down under has giving a way for us to control a Swea grid tie to keep it from blowing up. To date we have smoked 5 1000 W power jacks 3 solar units in bench and real wind testing. So I have a Ginlong inverter coming still sitting on the tarmat there. Witch we hope is a good match. The Winds are here now and you will have all the real world testing from the Water Tower site site Good or Bad I will post. If you have something that would help on the build please step up Bob Mann |
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Perry Senior Member Joined: 19/11/2009 Location: Posts: 190 |
Bob, Respectfully, could you please not cut and paste my name into your posts. Could you please remove it from your ebay ad's as well. Especially the latter. I am not comfortable with your calculated output graphs and do not think they are representative of the smart drive performance. If you would be willing to provide the long awaited values from recorded results, that would be another deal but I cringe when I see my name associated with an unproven design's calculated performance claims. No offense and thanks, Perry |
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| BobMann Senior Member Joined: 30/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 134 |
Sorry about for that is was a copy and paste,. But you kmow if you post some thing in a open forum it is up for graps. and I do not need your help to sell any thing I feel you go out of your way to hurt any of my builds. Bob Mann |
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| Perry Senior Member Joined: 19/11/2009 Location: Posts: 190 |
Bob, I worded it as politely as possible. I am sorry if you feel I am hurting your builds as I have on many occasions said you have done a great job as well as pointing out and giving you credit on my version that was inspired by you. I don't see how that could hurt you. With great claims come the responsibility of great proof though. All I ever have done is question the performance claims that seem to be double what everyone else is getting from a delta wired 60S stator. Maybe the neo's do provide that much of a power boost. Don't know, haven't seen the actual graphs. Just when I see my name popping up in your justifications and then in your ebay ads, that I do not want. Perhaps just a cut and paste error so I appreciate that but would still ask you to at least remove the reference from the ebay ad. You can cut and paste in Steve's model without my name in it. Perry P.S. Full disclosure - I made a similar alt based on a trailer hub that kinda looks like Bob's. No neo's and a basically stock F&P rotor. Will rewire for the series parallel combination' No intent to make more or market it. Just a fun project. Runs about like everyone else's F&P. Trying for 150 watts into a 24V battery bank @ 200 rpm. |
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| BobMann Senior Member Joined: 30/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 134 |
Hello tryed to pull it out of EBay can not on that Q&A part if you wish just ask a Q and I will post the mix up on the Q&A for you. For any of the other post and forums witch was 2 same deal it locks them out. I will ask Glen and Steve to delate them later. Bob Mann |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Yeah thats at big gray area. While it's easy to copy information from one web site (here) to another site(ebay), every effort should be made to obtain permission from the original author. If you can not contact the author, you should include their name and a link to the source, and be willing to remove the copied information if requested. Its like if a freelance journalist sends a story to a news paper to be published. You can read the paper, but you can not copy the published story and reprint it somewhere else without permission from the news paper or author. I'm working on a set of forum usage guidelines that will include this sort of information. Enough of this, lets move on. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| niall1 Senior Member Joined: 20/11/2008 Location: IrelandPosts: 331 |
i,d agree ....lets move on....but exactly where too ? this (1 plus) killawatt ,small swept area stuff has been doing the ebay rounds for months now .... first the lenz 2 ....anyone can see the actual windspeed /power ratings on Ed lenzs site if they want ,and he used a purpose built axial alt....he even did MIT wind tunnel tests now its 13 air x (Missouri wind and solar) clones ? on a f and p ....and according to the ebay add ...it,ll power your house ....or farm ???....(farms) must be getting very small i reckon Bob ....just rate the mills as to what they actually produce ....its a fair business model ,and might actually work to your advantage ............. niall |
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| BobMann Senior Member Joined: 30/06/2011 Location: United StatesPosts: 134 |
Moved on.For the copy and paste it is the only way I can write with my ADD some days. I am not here to rip any one off I am just trying to build the best low cost all around turbine and motor. The wind tunnel can take you just so far. You can give all the real data to some people and they just keep asking for more. I am selling my VAWT,s and the Mann Smart Drive motors. They say there happy with the product to date I have never had to take one back and we are going on 2 years. I think that is the the best test. for the motors in just 3 weeks it has been 5 units it is a good start. I think Glen would say it is not easy to build this stuff let alone sell it to someone and have them be happy. Bob Mann |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi Bob. Is there a way you can load up the alternators with some test gear to get the actual power figures. The problem with calculated power is its never right, because other effects come in to play. While the workmanship of your windmills is very good, some of the figures are a bit off. First up, the swept area is just to small to make that much power, unless you are experiencing a gale force wind. There's an article I put together to calculate the power available from a turbine here http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/articles/WindPower.asp. The maths is sound, so that will give a ball park figure on what to expect from a turbine of that size. Also, a single F&P is pretty much maxed out at 500 watts. Thats with neo magnets, series caps, whatever, it's just it's upper limit. The problem is the design of the stator itself, lots of iron and high inductance limits its peak current. In fact the F&P can suffer from runaway in strong winds, where it will spin faster and faster, but only make 500 odd watts, so it cant be controlled by loading or shorting electrically, unlike the axial flux alternators. The F&P's saving grace is it will survive overloading. The maths might show a power curve that rises to 1000 watts, but in reality it gets to 500 watts and flat lines. This was discovered by trial and error, a lot of trial and error, over many years. Dual stators can push up the power limit, but not double it. Its very easy to over rate a wind turbine. And in your case, I believe unintentional. They look like well made machines, your workmanship is very good. But experience has taught a lot of us the limits of the F&P, and 1000 watts is not achievable from a single F&P. Its better to get the power figures right now before you end up with customers complaining about false advertising. It happens. To rate the turbine you need to give a few power figures at a average wind speeds, say 10, 15, 20mph. Anything less than 10 has very little power, and over 20 is not your average wind, unless your on a mountain top. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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