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Forum Index : Windmills : Resistance in F&P motor
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GaryP Newbie  Joined: 01/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 15 |
Hi, I just got my first 80s F and P motor. Compared to a treadmill motor the shaft is quite stiff to turn. This is without the magnet drum attached so I don't mean cogging. Does anyone have a better system for making it spin freely or lubricating it. There is a rubber seal at the non bearing end of the plastic mounting. Do people remove this? also Probably another thread but... What is the best rewiring set up for 12 volts. It seems that most are talking about 24 volt setups. I can't change my set up to this so intend to run with a 12 volt system. So... is a staggered wiring set up any better than the 2x7c? I am in Melbourne, bayside area and I need to have this produce power in low winds as they seem to prevail where I live. Any advice appreciated $@#&*....the word often heard in my shed when it doesn't go to plan! |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi Gary Yeah you can pop out the seals on the bearings to reduce the drag, but I myself dont thinks its necessary. Once you have a set of blades on, you wont notice any difference the seals make, and they will keep dust out of the bearings. Oh hang on, you mean the seal that runs on the shaft to keep water out, not the bearing seals. Yeah take that one out, not needed. What sort of windmill is it going to be, a HAWT or VAWT. And how many blades. Will give us an idea on RPM. I'm a fan of the staggered stator idea, but need to know what your expected RPM's are before making a suggestion. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| GaryP Newbie Joined: 01/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 15 |
Hi Glenn, Thanks for your response. It will be a Hawt. I'm coming from a position of having had a treadmill motor which spins freely but just doesnt get enough rpm to create 12 volts. It is a 4000rpm 5amp 180volt motor. I have used 3 pvc pipe blades using a pattern I found from the net called a ? windjacker and these were my findings: 620mm radius- only makes 12volts in high winds, needs 150rpm to achieve this. 840mm radius- spins in low wind speed but rpm really only 100 at best. Now at 740mm radius gets to 120rmp or so. So this is why I have gone for the F and P motor which this forum is so fond of. Spinning the F and P by hand I noticed it just doesn't spin as freely as a treadmill motor so got concerned I was going to have to go to a 4 or 5 blade aiming for more tourque and accepting less rpm. I will definitely decog it by filing. Wasn't happy with the idea of twisting the coil pegs as others seem to have trouble with it. Knowing this I needed to find out the best rewiring config. Everything I've read on the forum doesn't quite answer it but I'll keep searching. I'm in Melbourne and have it on top of my roof but there is some wind interference from surrounding buildings and trees and don't want to upset neighbours and council by going to high. ie keeping it discreet. Currently have an 80watt solar panel charging batteries as well as the same treadmill motor attached to my exercise bike which gets adequate rpm but only 2.5amps for the Hour I ride each day. Just can't get the wind side of it working. $@#&*....the word often heard in my shed when it doesn't go to plan! |
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Tinker Guru  Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Gary, you may have bad bearings on your F&P. They spin quite freely if decogged or the 7 phase rotor is used. Elsewhere in this forum is all the info you need to remove the shaft & bearings, its a good idea to check them out anyway. The shaft end seal does bind a bit, most people remove that one and rely on the sealed bearings. Just be sure you put it all together correctly, make a sketch of it as you take it apart. Klaus |
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| Air Bender Senior Member  Joined: 25/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 206 |
Hi Gary I took the seal out of my F/P and I also took out the bearings and one was a bit tight and it looked to have got a bit of water into it. So i took of to the local bearing shop and they were kind enough to point to where the shelves were out in the back room with all the bearings that size. So in the next half an hour I spin tested all the bearings that size and found alot of difference in how freely they spun, and the guy in the shop told me they are made to all different tolerances. Unfortunatly i didnt write down the numbers and information on the ones i got but i remember they have a blue seal while others have red and green and other colours and they guy said they are used on hay bailing machines. If I remember right they cost about $6. My mill which is a vawt spins freely in the wind on just the rotor arms without the wings and magnet rotor atached. I ground and then filed the metel ends of the coils rounding them without reducing the air gap which reduced the cogging by about half without notesably reducing the the voltage output of the motor. All the best with your mill Dean. |
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| GaryP Newbie Joined: 01/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 15 |
Thanks Klaus and Dean, I will first remove the rubber seal and then try taking out the bearing and giving a good soak in turpentine. If no help then I will head to my nearest bearing shop. Also about to pick up another 80s motor and will compare to see if it is just a stiff bearing. Thanks Gary $@#&*....the word often heard in my shed when it doesn't go to plan! |
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| Tinker Guru Joined: 07/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1904 |
Gary, there are two identical bearings inside the white plastic hub. Use kerosene, not turpentine to clean your bearings. But, you cannot clean them anyway unless you carefully prise out the seals (mine had orange ones) with a small bluntish screwdriver. Then you can't put the seals back. Much better to first spin the bearings by hand, putting side pressure (axial) on them as you spin and feel for rough balls inside. Then put it on the shaft and try to wiggle the outer race from side to side, if there is any play discard the bearing. They are not really expensive and all the bearing shops stock them, just go there with one old one so they can check the number. You want sealed bearings, especially the one at the prop end. If it was me I'd replace them anyway but just for experimenting in the shed the old ones might do fine. Once its up a mast and expected to produce power the last thing you want to find out is the bearings are stuffed. Klaus |
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| GaryP Newbie Joined: 01/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 15 |
Great advice Klaus. Will do. Just out of interest, are you in Melbourne and do you know of a bearing store in Melbourne somewhere. Cheers Gary $@#&*....the word often heard in my shed when it doesn't go to plan! |
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| Air Bender Senior Member Joined: 25/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 206 |
Hi Gary Probably a bit far for you to travel but i got mine from Morse bearings in Warrnambool. But I am shore there will a few bearing shops around Melbourne. All the best Dean. |
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| Jarbar Senior Member Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 224 |
Hi Gary, Bearing Wholesalers 134 Adderley St West Melbourne 9326 7188.The Bayswater branch is always very helpful. Anthony. "Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father "Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather. |
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rossmcn Newbie Joined: 03/05/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
Hi Gary There are Rolling Bearing Company shops in Braeside and Campbellfield and other suburbs. thru experience I have found their customer service to be better than most, Cheers Ross Technology has the advantage that it is 'real'. Theories, even laws, are ultimately only our best current model. Consequently, inevitably they will eventually be replaced with a better model |
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| GaryP Newbie Joined: 01/06/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 15 |
Thank you all for the tips. Went to the Rolling Bearing Company in Braeside. 221 Boundary Rd. the Bearing number for anyone interested is 6005 They have them in stock as sealed or unsealed. I purchased some unsealed ones that fit perfectly for $8 each. When I got home I tried removing the seal (0ne side only) from the originals and it was very easy. This also revealed some thick grease which slowed them. After a dip in kero they ran smoothly. I am re using these a they work perfectly. Now the shaft spins beautifully. Thanks guys. $@#&*....the word often heard in my shed when it doesn't go to plan! |
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