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Forum Index : Windmills : Newbie Help GOE 222 (MVA H.33)
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udsn Newbie  Joined: 15/12/2010 Location: JordanPosts: 9 |
Dear All I have been reading on this forum for some time. With good knowledge in electrical and electronics and a good internet and Computer skills I hope and want to build as powerful and efficient as can be done windmill. From this forum I was introduced to the aluminum Blades with the GOE 222 (MVA H.33) profile, so I bought them from china, three meter long for each one. 3 blades in total. I need all the help I can get. I want to start with the equations, put them in excel for every one to use. Starting form energy available in wind, the efficiency of the generator, efficiency of blads at speeds , angle of attack, to every thing else. My main problem is blade efficiency, the Performance of the GOE 222 (MVA H.33), angel of attack speed etc. Does any one have any idea where I can get the performance chart and data for the GOE 222 (MVA H.33) profile?? Where do I get that data ? angel of attack best speed , etc And how do I integrate that into one equation or excel sheet. About the Generator. The only smart motor or brushless DC motor for a washing machine i could get is the Daewoo WS2A16Go11 (stator-coils) and the Rotor (magnets) WR1238F002. I could mix the zeros with the letter O. Can any one help me please? Thank you and best of regards want real scince |
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Downwind Guru  Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi, 3 meter blades is a bloody big mill, and will be like trying to control a freight train!!! I dont know of any data that you ask about as the aluminum Blades are reasonably new and have not had a lot of testing over time done on them yet. Personally i think they have issues and are not convinced they are the best answer for windmill blades. Although they appear to work well, and in some cases too well, to the point you cannot control them in good winds. Other people will have different opinions, but so far the facts speak for themselves. Perhaps you could post a photo of the Daewoo motor as i have not seen one of those yet, it will also help with any advice given. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi udsn, welcome to the site. Dont be too keen to use maths and Excel to calculate how your windmill will behave. One thing most of us have learned is a lot of the maths goes out the window once you start building and testing. I would suggest you build something a little smaller to start off with. Big turbines have big problems, and its experience you gain from starting with something smaller that will help you once you build a bigger machine. Pete's right about the GEO222 profile, we are still learning how to best use it and there are some issues to sort out. The blades perform very well at converting wind power to shaft power, but there are some furling problems to sort out. Its a prime example of where the maths let us down, the furling calculations just dont work very well with this profile. But I do think the GEO222 based turbine has a lot of potential once we understand how to control it. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| udsn Newbie Joined: 15/12/2010 Location: JordanPosts: 9 |
Dear All ,Dear Gizmo and Downwind Thank you for replying, The Gen I will try to post pics of the Motor as soon as I can. I find it strange that the system of Brushless Dc motor for washing machines only got to my country just 2 -3 years ago, AND that I cannot find pics of it on the net nor the model!! No charts for the motor it self , like how much power it consumes vs. rpm with voltage and amps how much torque output , and the other way around , i.e. how much energy-power it can generate vs. rpm and voltage. Angular velocity etc i.e. rpm needed for optimal efficient production on each wind speed. Calculations Getting any calculations is better than no calculations. For example using 9 meter radius windmill for 500 watts is stu**d don’t you think? There is a difference between average wind speed of 2 m/s and 9 m/s. So I have to do any kind of calculations to be close enough. Does any one know where I can get software to simulate the performance of the goe222? Here is a link for a data base that might have all what I need but is it ? http://www.worldofkrauss.com/foils/435 what I want to do and looking for is An over all equation- excel sheet- software that I can design my system and test virtually it or vise versa, input power needs and / or wind numbers then design based on that. I am actually trying to do it on excel my self , BUT….. Life happens, I am not good with math etc. IDEA I have a question in the form of an idea!! Dynamic coil wiring Would it be feasible and/or possible to have a dynamic PMA wiring? For example if the wind is slow, the wiring of the PMA is reconfigured instead of giving out 96 volts it now gives 48 volts or less like 12 volts and it goes into the batteries. Does that sound crazy or more efficient? Or dangerous or expensive? Or have several generator but with clutches that can be switched on and off? Picking your brains buys. I will be sharing any results I get. Thank you in advance. want real scince |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I think the best thing you can do is some testing of your own, to get some data to work with as its just pye in the sky theory until you do. Set your generator up so you can spin it at various rpm and record the voltage to rpm. This will give you and idea of what rpm you will be aiming for, then you can decide what coil re design you might be best to do to adjust the rpm so to increase the current. As for lots of fancy multi voltage arrangements, the answer is simple .....Keep it Simple!! Each thing you add outside of basic simple is another thing to fail and destroy your mill. (which it will sorry to say) The less switching you can have the longer hassle free operation you will receive. Also it adds a lot of wiring between mill head and tower and if you use slip rings its a lot of rings and brushes needed. Just remember most of what ideas you will come up, with have been tested and discussed long ago and there is normally a good reason why they are not commonly use by the rest of us. (keep it simple is the key) But don't let that stop you from thinking and asking question. (you hold the targets and we will shot at you  )
Yes it would seem you guys are behind in washing machine technology. We have been wrecking them for years to make windmills and you are just starting to get them now as washing machines 
Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi UDSN I am presently using a set of blades the same as you have and found that they are very high torque and based on altons calculator they are exceeding the output of his higher speed blade design. MS ----mph ---Tn ----TKg -----RPM ---Watt@B ---ST Kg/m 0.5-----1.1-----0.9-----0.1-----27------0------ 0 1-------2.2-----3.4-----0.3-----54------2-------0 1.5---- 3.4---- 7.7---- 0.8-----80----- 7------ 0.01 2------ 4.5---- 13.6--- 1.4-----107---- 16----- 0.02 2.5---- 5.6---- 21.3--- 2.2-----134---- 31----- 0.03 3------ 6.7---- 30.7--- 3.1-----161---- 53----- 0.04 3.5---- 7.8---- 41.8--- 4.3-----188---- 84----- 0.06 4------ 8.9---- 54.6--- 5.6-----215---- 125---- 0.07 4.5---- 10.1--- 69.1--- 7-------241---- 178---- 0.09 5------ 11.2--- 85.3--- 8.7-----268---- 244---- 0.12 5.5---- 12.3--- 103.2-- 10.5----295---- 325---- 0.14 6------ 13.4--- 122.8-- 12.5----322---- 422---- 0.17 6.5---- 14.5--- 144.1-- 14.7----349---- 537---- 0.19 7------ 15.7--- 167.2-- 17.1----375---- 670---- 0.23 7.5---- 16.8--- 191.9-- 19.6----402---- 824---- 0.26 8------ 17.9--- 218.3-- 22.3----429---- 1001----0.3 8.5---- 19----- 246.5-- 25.1----456---- 1200----0.33 This is his calculation for a 2.8 meter blade set. My set of blades are doing better than his in the lower speed range, below 5 ms and not as much as the speed increases over 10 ms, but it is a starting point. This is a result of observation with analog meters and the best load system I can present to the mill at the moment, so it wont be 100% accurate, just an indication of performance. At 2.8 meters diameter 3 blade combination it would drive a washing machine motor conversion to smoke. See my forum entry (My New Mill) for further information. I am finding they are hard to furl, I suspect due to their high lift constant cord configuration, but work very well at low wind speeds. /www.alton-moore.net/wind_calculations.php Altons site is very informative but his standard blade doesn't represent the performance of these blades. They have a much higher C/L and higher drag at higher speeds. I hope to have a logger going in the new year and then can work backwards with his data to establish a performance sheet reflecting these blades. All the best Bob PS These blades have a C/L max of 2.5 at low Reynolds numbers and produce lift to -8 degrees. LD ratio 47 to 1 The Alton based blades have a C/L Max of 1.2 at low Reynolds numbers and produce lift to -6 degrees. LD Ratio 51 to 1 Due to the large under camber on the 222 blades they develop a lot of what is called pitch drag, this causes a larger deflection of the airflow around the airfoil and results in higher lift but higher drag as the airspeed increases, whereas the clark Y derived used in Altons has less pitch drag due to the slight positive camber of the lower surface resulting in less deflection of the air mass, so lower torque but higher speed. Foolin Around |
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| udsn Newbie Joined: 15/12/2010 Location: JordanPosts: 9 |
Dear VK4AYQ Dear Downwind Dear all thank you for your help. I think I have found a great or at least a wonderful site it with a great Excel calculator for windblade torque profile calculator. The page isn’t clear but at the bottom you can find it the excels sheet. http://sites.google.com/site/colabhere/wind-turbine-blade-de signs-2 I take no credit for the excel sheet, I have uploaded it. 2010-12-22_234444_Rotor_Torque_Calculator-1-1.zip But still I don’t know how to use it for the GOE222. any help there ? How to read the Generators torque and rpm needs and meet them with the wind blades speed and length etc. Hope this helps want real scince |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Hi, Think you are making a mistake of putting too much into theory and calculators and expecting the wind to follow this scale. In reality this will not be the case a lot of the time as there is many other factors in play the calculators dont allow for. Reasearch on tried and tested builds will give you far more information and understanding than a computer calculator ever will. Most calculators are for blade design more so than mill design for the blades. As you are using a washing machine motor and not desiging a alternator from scratch with a megga budget, there is little point in spending hours pondering over a calculator, with figures you only assume to be correct. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Udsn Pete is right about the variables, and they are the main problem with a wind mill build, the first thing to do is select a suitable site and using a weather station monitor and record your wind speeds in meters a second, this will give you an idea on the basic design of your mill, then use the alton calculator to relate the power available and therefore the energy input to your mill. Then you can get an idea of blade size diameter, I am not familiar with the wash machine motor you are using, but most washing machine motors I have tried only produce 200 to 300 watts so use 400 watts as a max guideline, with the 222 blades you have a 2.5 meter diameter setup will drive these watts in low wind speed and a lot more above 10 ms, so you will need a overspeed control to control the mill, either electronic braking or furling, or a combination of both. There isnt a design spreadsheet that fits all new designs to tell you exactly how to do it, as Pete suggests do a tried and true design you can copy and relate it to your motor / alternator. All the best Bob PS It is a waste of time looking at other blade design spreadsheets when you already have the 222 blades just work with them, as they are an excellent low speed blade. Foolin Around |
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Cornelius Newbie Joined: 26/12/2008 Location: NorwayPosts: 27 |
Correct me if i'm wrong but... Didn't the OP said his blades was 3m each? This would make a 6m diameter rotor, suitable for a 6-10kW alternator... 
Just saw several of you use 2,5-3m diameter as examples...  |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
[quote]Didn't the OP said his blades was 3m each? [/quote] Think he was going to cut them to size. At 6m dia the rpm would be so slow on a F&P style generator it would hardly reach cutin. You would never control it either on a generator like that. 3 x 3m lengths would give 2 sets of 3 blades and may have been what was intended. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Cornelius Newbie Joined: 26/12/2008 Location: NorwayPosts: 27 |
Ah, so there is no twist on the blades. Two sets makes sense then...
(Just wanted to clarify. ) |
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