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Forum Index : Windmills : What we already know
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Downwind Guru  Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
As reported in "The Australian News Paper" on November 30. A Uni study shows wind and solar energy are a good hybrid source of energy. Heres the printed article....................................... System sheds light on renewable forecasts: energy A HYBRID forecasting system that integrates solar and wind energy sources could make predictions for renewable energy schemes more accurate. Being developed at Central Queensland University, the system could overcome the unpredictable nature and dependence on weather changes of solar and wind energy systems. By integrating and forecasting the two power sources in a hybrid forecasting system, many of the problems could be resolved, according to CQU researcher Rahat Hossain. Mr Hossain has been working to develop a more robust hybrid forecasting system, which can provide accurate renewable energy predictions. "If you use these two things (wind and solar) in an integrated way, then it is a consistent and more correct prediction," he said. Australia and, in particular, the subtropical regions are considered to be in one of the best positions to use a hybrid forecasting system, which would be unique in predicting energy from wind and solar sources combined. It is hoped the system could lead to a more sustainable future with less reliance on coal-fired energy. Mr Hossain, a PhD student at CQU's Power Engineering Research Group within the Institute for Resource Industries and Sustainability (IRIS), is using historical solar and wind data from the CSIRO collected over the past 10 years. The initial stages had involved smaller-scale tests to predict wind speed and solar radiation individually, and these tests had almost 95 per cent accuracy. "The next target will be energy conversion from the wind speed and also energy conversion from the solar radiation," he said. "Then we will merge those things in a single system." The model would be developed in such a way that, with minor modifications in the coding, it would be able to perform the hybrid forecasting, ranging from hourly to daily within the same platform. A trial energy station is being planned in Central Queensland as part of the project. Australia has committed to sourcing renewable energy for 20 per cent of its energy by 2020. Many other nations, such as Germany and Denmark, are further advanced in renewable energy. Wind energy is one of the lowest priced renewable energy technologies. The cost of producing energy from solar is also becoming cheaper following advances in solar panel technology. "You find when wind is blowing normally there is no sun and when there is a huge amount of sun, there is no wind," Mr Hossain said. "If you can merge these two things, what will happen is a consistent or continuous supply." Link to original site............. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/system-sheds-l ight-on-renewable-forecasts-energy/story-e6frgakx-1225962889 835 Sometimes it just works |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Pete It makes you wonder about these so called experts, they are at least 30 years behind the times. Bob Foolin Around |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
What an Idiot ,,, what the hell has he said ----nothing---- It's incredible how these idiots get grants to tell us absolutely nothing . Wank Wank ,,,, Bruce Bushboy |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
This article on the ABC is a good read. http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/12/02/3081889.ht m?site=science/opinion&topic=energy I always thought the baseload argument was a load of spin. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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powerednut Senior Member  Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
In reality base load is a fairly significant problem. The power providers a required to provide a constant voltage and frequency no matter what the load. So if the wind drops off and the big turbines start producing less power then other systems have to step up to cope. Coal, oil and gas stations are limited in how fast they can spin up to cope with additional load, gas being about the quickest. That leaves the hydro plants as the short term stop gaps (because they can switch on and spin up fast). I'd be guessing they make a crapload of money dealing with small fluctuations in power until a more traditional plant gets up to speed. The more widespread solar and wind becomes the bigger a problem it will be for the grid we have now to cope with the fluctuations caused by cloud systems or changes in windspeed. |
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| neil0mac Senior Member Joined: 26/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 210 |
But, overall, the wind speed across Australia is constant**, with wind being much more uniform than solar radiation that does have a total daily variability. The 'problem' that usually goes under the radar as the variability in the demand for power over the course of a day/week/season. ** Wide spread use of wind power would further reduce this variability. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi All If as much effort was put into thermal energy storage of excess energy for both wind and solar, active and passive the variability in load to production ratio could be smoothed to a point of no consequence. While there would need to be seed power plants to sync onto for the alternate grid, the Australia wide grid could be synchronized by radio link, or existing data transmission formats. Transmission losses would be drastically reduced in a point of service system, without the long distance load sharing losses now present. Heavy industry would need to have localized power stations for heavy load activities gas fired mini stations could be used that would supply their needs, these power stations owned and operated by the industry using the power could be used for the syncro power in the area, and excess power sold into the public system, The cost of running their own system instead of relying on the public system would make them aware of the true cost of power, and being a corporate entity would demonstrate to them that processes using more efficient use of power would help their profit, so they would go that way as a matter of course. Solar, also by utilizing their vast roof areas a solar system in feed would compliment their power production. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
A few years ago I had a TV interview. Readers may have seen parts of this on ABC, 7, and 10. This was a freelance interview from memory. I was interviewed for over an hour and a minute was able to be edited into the main 7 news report. Parts have been used in relevant stories and bits pop up still. I raised the question of base loading, peak load management and power transmission. There were discrete topics on solar power and windmill power. The AC grid power transmission has no inherant storage capacity and presents a considerable loss. I suggested that a DC grid may offer a more efficient power transmission system. I believe that an underground high voltage DC grid would be a solution to the peak power spikes. The DC grid has storage similar to a giant capacitor. It would be relatively easy to add capacity, and the storage capacity increases with extension of the grid. I had discussed a grid that supported the whole of AUS. There is already successful DC transmission lines and apparently conversion back to AC for local reticulated networks is not difficult. The Solar panels already produce DC, be it relatively low voltage. Windmills are normally located away from the AC transmission grid. Most windmill viability is related to the need to build a new AC transmission feed and substation infrastructure. Setting up for DC instead of AC transmission would not necessarily be too difficult. I think the biggest contributor to base load problems are industry and the offer of off peak power for heating water. It will take a brave government to make inroads to change things. I believe that the extension of the grid network to all parts of AUS will give more diversity, and an averaging of the power supply, and not a peaking of the supply. Windmills offer a better base load supply as there is usually wind blowing somewhere. We need to change when we use peak power demands, to better coincide with renewable power availability. Pumping water is probably still the best way of averaging the power between source and loads. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Gordon I have given a lot of thought to the DC grid concept and have tried it in the past on 32 volt but it would need high voltage to get the efficiency up on a community level, even battery storage is cost effective as a storage medium over the long term, I maintained a farm setup on a large property in Victoria that run on 110 volt DC, even though the technology was stone age compared to now it worked very well, it ran 6 houses the shearing shed, workshop and cool store. Lead Acid batteries have improved a lot since then and have the ability to be repaired or recycled wit little lost raw materials. Im not sure how the new LIPO batteries compare in a fixed base situation cost per watt and recycle-ability, the ones I see here in my own area suffer reliability issues so at this point in time I dont think them a proposition. Large capacitors are easy to make and very cheap, but need high voltage to be use full for storage. I have tried them on 36 and 48 volts with less than spectacular performance, when used direct coupled. The water storage of energy I would have thought was the least efficient of the storage mediums on conversion losses but may be in front on secondary usage of infrastructure issues. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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