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Forum Index : Windmills : F&P@PE
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GWatPE Senior Member  Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
The F&P mill is up and flying. Here are some photos. The design and engineering was by ZestAir. The Unit contains an unmodified F&P 100S stator and the original F&P magnet ring, that was removed from the spline moulding. This is a work in progress still. The 1.5m Douglas Fir timber blades of high aspect taper/twist design are in the process of restoration. The first 2 images are of the assembled alternator with front and side views 
This image is of the Yaw bearing and slipring axle 
This image is of the assembled alternator 
This image is of the assembled mill head components 
This image is of the windmill waiting for enough wind. 
This will probably be a long [and possibly critical] testing process. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
The first flying test is finished. I have logged the F&P with my mill as a comparison. The graph below has battery current for each mill and battery voltage. The current is multiplied by 10 for clarity to show on the one graph. The test was for 5 minutes. This is a 24V nom battery system. 
There are some interesting features. The F&P mill needed approx 15kph wind to start. The axial flux mill has a 3.14m^2 wind capture area and has a Maximiser between the mill and battery. The F&P mill has a 7.07m^2 wind capture area and is direct to the battery bank. I have to say that there is little difference in the currents between each mill. The iron cored mill was not overloaded at the power levels tested. It seems that the iron and winding resistance gives a degree of wind energy tracking. The larger rotor had more inertia and this smoothed the mill response. The most obvious point is that the F&P alternator required 7/3 larger rotor area to produce approx the same current. There is significant noise associated with the cogging. This does diminish at higher power levels. I have had to turn the F&P mill off until I either twist the pole fingers, or use some other technique to reduce this noise. It certainly will draw unnessary atttention to the windmill with the current noise levels if left this way. No doubt more enexpected results will come with further testing. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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Gill Senior Member Joined: 11/11/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 669 |
Gordon, Very clean lines and presents well. The bearings will never be overloaded that's for sure and am curious of the lubrication to be used and how it's retained. I assume a load distribution clamping washers/ring was left off for the 1st photo but guess too late now if not. A weather exclusion cover across the back of the stator could block sunlight etc. but again may have been left off for photo. I really like the enclosed slip rings, and still accessible through a cover plate for quick inspection. The added mass of the hubs extra band may slow response time a little, but otherwise a very neat and solid mill. Nice to see a departure from the standard arrangement too. Though, like me, I'd say few would have machine shop access to duplicate that approach. At least us bush dwellers can always beat you with height. Those stumpy towers might pacify the neighbours, but can't give you the clean airflow you'd like. Still, it's a matter of making the most of what you've got, and that mill will sh*t it in. Great design, Nice work.  
was working fine... til the smoke got out. Cheers Gill _Cairns, FNQ |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru  Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Hi Gordon ,,,, nice work ,,, the 100 series will annoy your neighbours -- it makes by far the most noise and I've tried many ways to minimise this ,,a hum on the way up and a hum on the way down --pity ,because it's a great performer. Change over to a 80 or 60 series stator and silence is guaranteed. Can you incorporate a "dual" stator/rotor into your assembly--?. Nice work on the slip-rings,,better tell our mates about the brushes--a very important part of slip rings .. Your wind strength has to this point not been ,in my opinion, strong enough to capture the top end ,but as discussed you want to see how things go down in the low end winds. (Readers--I have spoken to Gordon today ,just after he did the test's,,he held the telephone close to the mill ,,it was making a hell of a noise ) If anyone has done up the tower tests on the "staggered" Glenn's stator ,,could you post results,,please . all the best Gordon ,,nice work Bruce Bushboy |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
It looks like the windmill mast is attached to the roof? If so, then yes it will make a hell of a racket! Using a standard F&P on a roof mounted mast is possibly the noisy-est configuration you could come up with  , top job. But if thats not what you wanted, any of the decogging methods will reduce the noise considerably, and get the windmill starting in lighter winds. Using a later model 36 pole smartdrive will be almost silent, as would a 7 phase conversion.
Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Gordon , Looks Bullet proof , are they ford wheel bearings on the prop stub axle ? if so you should be able to swing a 10 mtr prop on them in a gale .. Great to see different designs and keep the test results comming ...Phill.... PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Yeah its a very professional looking machine. Like Bruce I would be interrested to see if you can fit another F&P in there. A 3 meter prop should drive a couple of F&P's. The results are interresting. I think the 100S unmodified is missmatched for that turbine, a unmodified stator is ony good for a few amps, but they do have a low cut in speed. Once you use a decoged F&P with those large blades it should make good low wind power ( and kill that noise ), though the unmodified 100 series wont be able to pull up that turbine once the wind picks up though. Dennis got some great results from a unmodified 100S connected in delta, 24v, with a 5 piggot blade windmill, 15 amps. Might be worth a try, reconnect it as delta. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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philb Regular Member  Joined: 05/07/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 96 |
Nice work Gordon! That is a very professional looking machine. I have made 7 three phase axial flux machines so far. The last one had an iron core stator. I did not have any cogging because the coils of wire were on top and below the iron. All had a whine at various rpms. I assumed it delt with the load on the genny. I tried in vain to remedy the situation. I have no experience with F&P, but appearantly, there is a cogging problem. Is that where you gents think the noise is coming from? Do you have a problem with the grease from the yaw bearing getting on the slip rings? Thanks, nice read. philb |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
The unit has been designed and built to test as many configurations as possible and still survive the weather where I live. >100kph winds occurs a couple of times a year and the mill has to be able to survive unaided. I have just applied the twist technique to the pole fingers of an 80 series and now have to true the stator again and then I will rewire to the standard rewire. My axial flux is attached the same way to the structure and is very quiet. If I lose some max power in the decogging process, this will not be an issue. I may end up with a rewire in delta with a maximiser. This is early days yet. Gordon. PS. Hi Gizmo, I would go straight to an axial flux fit rather than a dual I suspect, if I was after more power. It would be an easier conversion. become more energy aware |
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| Dinges Senior Member Joined: 04/01/2008 Location: AlbaniaPosts: 510 |
Looks very impressive, Gordon. The devil is in the detail. The slipring assembly with detachable coverplate, the generator and yaw bearings, the outer rotor. Looks very professional, I hope it'll live up to its expectations. As far as output goes, it's not entirely fair to compare an axial with maximiser to a F&P without it. Would be very interesting to see what the F&P could do with a maximiser ? The cogging is a pity. I'll believe Bruce when he says it makes a terrible racket, but if it would somehow be possible to record it to .mp3 or .wav and make it available on this forum... then we could not only admire the pictures but listen to it as well... 
Seriously. If it's not too much work to record the noise of an un-decogged vs. a decogged F&P... it might help newbies in making their decision on whether or not to decog. An audio recording would make a nice addition to the F&P project pages of Gizmo ? Have you considered building simply a new rotor with neo magnets ? Wouldn't be too hard to build it in such a way that it is decogged. But the F&P may need a rewind afterwards (or electrickery to match to the battery) to reduce copper losses. Anyway, looking forward to further test results. Peter. |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi dinges, I will decog the 100S as well now.[pole twist method] All the testing I intend to perform may take up to several months. The problem is, I have to do things logically. Bench testing seems to be unreliable for determining actual flying behavior. If I decog, then it is hard to go back, with the same stator. I do not have unlimited numbers of stators. My two machines are almost the same, from the ground, up through the pole, slip rings and yaw box. The different power head and blades are interchangeable. There appears to be a fair bit of electromechanical loose coupling, "sponginess" between the wind energy and the battery in an iron cored machine. The blade/alternator/battery was well matched to the wind energy during the above test, at that wind energy level. A boost maximiser would not have improved the output. As far as I can tell, there are no MPPT, to confirm this with. The fact that my axial flux[electrically stiff], that has controls to match the wind energy, provided almost the same power tracking as the iron cored machine was shown in the data. The blades were not overloaded as there was no abrupt sound/rpm change as cutin occurred, and current flowed. The battery voltage remained constant during the testing, yet in both machines the rotor rmp followed the change in windspeed, at the 0-50W power level. This may be dumb luck with the F&P/battery load being well matched to the wind energy at this power level. I will keep gathering flying test comparison data similar to the above, to log the test changes. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| Jarbar Senior Member Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 224 |
Dinges,I had a large resonating noise in the blades of my VAWT caused by the uncogged F&P.By twisting the poles as described at the front info page of this site,it is now silent.But is still unloaded as I have yet to do the rewire modifications.But it definitly got rid of the noise and starts more readily. P.S My wife is from Belgium. Anthony. "Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father "Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather. |
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| Dinges Senior Member Joined: 04/01/2008 Location: AlbaniaPosts: 510 |
Understood Gordon. Still, something is the matter; the F&P has 2.3 times the diameter (7/3) so 2.3^2 = 5.4 times the blade area (and potential windpower capture), yet it produces the same amount of power into the battery as the much smaller axial flux. That's not right. So, either the F&P blades are more inefficient or not properly matched to the generator, or the F&P is much more inefficient (copper losses? Iron losses? simply not enough magnet to actually generate satisfactory power?), or the F&P isn't matched properly to the batteries, or... I don't know what's the issue here. I'll agree that an iron-cored genny has more losses, but certainly not to the point that it needs over five times the blade area to produce the equivalent power of an axial flux. If we assume the axial flux to be 100% efficient then the F&P would be in comparison only 20% efficient. If it were only 20% efficient I'd expect your F&P to get very hot (assuming the blade was still harvesting 5.4 times as much power as the blades of the axial flux). If it isn't getting hot that may mean your blades aren't extracting all the power from the wind that they should ? (less mechanical power input to the F&P). So, either you're getting much less mechanical shaft power input (blade issue), or there are huge inefficiencies (generator issue; unlikely, as the F&P would have to get *very* hot), or... ? Something's not right though. (or rather: there should be room for improvement )
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| Dinges Senior Member Joined: 04/01/2008 Location: AlbaniaPosts: 510 |
Yes, that should work fine; it's basically the same as done in motorconversions when skewing the stator. IIRC there was one user who even made a special tool for the operation. I won't hold that against you, Jarbar... 
Just kidding. Where is she from exactly? I lived a while in Belgium myself (Vlimmeren, near Turnhout). Now I'm in NL again but within 10 km of the Belgian border, north of Antwerp (when I look outside I can even see the nuclear powerplant of Doel (Antwerp). |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi dinges, I hate quoting myself, but; The rotors are not 7m dia, or 3m dia. Remember that my axial flux mill has high efficiency [approx98%]at these power levels and the Lakota blades are pretty good, as well. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| Jarbar Senior Member Joined: 03/02/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 224 |
Hi Dinges, better you than I living near that powerplant.My wife is from Gent in East Flanders.And it was I who made the tool to skew the poles and Glenn kindly placed it on the info pages.I am in awe of your efforts and knowledge.Thanks for your input to this site,very informative.Also to Gordon and everyone else. "Creativity is detirmined by the way you hold your tounge".My Father "Your generation will have to correct the problems made by mine".My Grandfather. |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Jarbar , A question on pole bending , I am thinking of doing my Quad , as it is completly unclogged at present by carfull alignment of the stators the clogging is minor but still there , what angle have you bent yours to and what performance loss has it caused , if anyone else has experimented with pole twisting I would appreciate the info , twisting 164 poles will take some time and I would think it is irrevsable ... Phill... PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Very professionally-looking setup! Congratulations! Those Timkens are as big as Texas and would support a dual F&P. Will you use the brushes out of a vacuum cleaner for your slip rings? Or something better? Keep up the good work! Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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| domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873 |
Dinges, I hope you do not glow at night! My brother-in-law lives in Braschaat (N of Antwerp). That nuclear reactor must supply the electricity to the chemical factories, like BASF in Antwerp. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up. Winston Churchill |
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oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
Hi Gordon, Dropped in,... only to find this magnificent machine you have built. I will be interested to see you continue your exhaustive testing with this. The "elasticity" you refer to is probably a result of some iron loss but more likely the resistance. It naturally helps match the load. The stiffer they are electrically, the more room for boost maximising and pushing the cut in up and matching the curves better. I will be interested to see if this proves to be the case, or there are more interesting reasons. I have no idea of the power curves of the stator you are using, but I assume that you have more blade power available than you are using. It would be interesting to load it with a higher voltage battery and campare it then..... and a 12v bank to see if you stall it/or cook it. (rough way to check your match really). One suspects you will unravel the mysteries of the F&P sooner than later. Great work Gordon. .......oztules This will become problematic Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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