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Hello all, I am new to this forum and new to wind turbines. I have a issue with my turbine and looking for advise.
I have made a duel F&P motor turbine with rewired stators 42 pole to 2X7C ( split in half ) with 2 x bridge rectifiers up the top at the head, !0mm cable coming down the mast, blades shaped from 300mm PVC pipe with a rotor diameter of 2.8m.
I hooked it all up to a 1000 watt Chinese grid tie inverter with wind turbine controller inbuilt and in low wind it started to work, the next day the wind picked up a bit and all of a sudden the turbine almost stopped ! there seems to be too much resistance or load on the turbine. If I disconnect the inverter the turbine free spins very easily. Im wondering if the is an electrical issue within the turbine or if the inverter has the problem ? has anyone had problem with wind controller grid tie inverters like this ? it is a POWER INVERTER brand from ebay. Any advise on this would be appreciated
govertical Guru Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United StatesPosts: 383
Posted: 02:17am 18 Jun 2015
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Hi, is there a over voltage protection circuit on the input of the grid tie inverter? Maybe try placing a 12 volt battery between the turbine and grid try. Just a suggestion.just because your a GURU or forum administer does not mean your always correct :)
rustyrod Senior Member Joined: 08/11/2014 Location: AustraliaPosts: 121
Posted: 03:44am 18 Jun 2015
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This unit is a great idea, if only I could afford one.
From the blurb,
There are 4 terminals on the left side of the inverter, 1 red terminals and 1 black will be connected to the phase output from the wind turbine, and 2 black terminals will be connected to dump load resistors.
You did not tell us if you have a dump load connected?
Have you the 22 to 60 volt or the 45 to 90 volt unit?
From the blurb,
This model grid-tie has build in bridge rectifier and dump load controller, it can maintain the rotating speed of the wind turbine and keep the voltage from the wind turbine always at the range of the rated range of the grid tie inverter. It also has a high voltage protection function, when the wind is too big, and the dump load controlling system can’t keep the output voltage from the wind turbine, the controller will disconnect itself from the wind turbine, so it is very safe to be used.
This (chinkanese) wording means- the unit can control the turbine using the dump load to slow the turbine down, up to a certain point BUT if it all gets too much it goes on strike and will sulk, this lets the turbine go like hell. Then when the wind drops the unit will get back to work.
(Have I ever said before, Storms and wind gennys put the wind up me)
Have you used the turbine before for some other application eg. charging batteries?
Have you measured the voltage coming from your turbine?
Have you tested the turbine by driving it with a motor?
Your turbine may be putting out a high voltage but a low amperage.
The unit doesn't like high voltage.
Is the unit bogging the turbine down in a light wind or a only in strong wind?
When the turbine is bogged down are the flashy lights on the unit doing their thing?
These led lights will tell you what is happening.
From the blurb,
There are 4 LED indicators, 3 green indicators and 1 red indicator, 3 green LED indicators will start to cycle from left to right when the grid and AC input supply is detected. This indicates the inverter is operating under normal condition. The rate of the cycling is according to how much power is being output from the wind turbine. The bigger the output power is, the faster the rate is. If there is no AC grid detected, the red LED will be on, the inverter will not put out power, this is called “Island Protection”
I have have never made blades, from what I have read your diameter sounds ok.
I have the 22-60 volt model, I built the turbine before I had the inverter/control unit so I had it hooked up to 3 x truck batteries = 36 volts, but in moderate wind the turbine was still going silly so I connected 1 x 12volt spotlight as well as a 24 volt spotlight to the batteries to load up turbine and consume the power ( this lit the shed up quite well ).
This system worked well with power outputs between 400-1200 watts ( I got these numbers by DC voltage X DC amperage = wattage, 45 x 24 = 1080, think this is correct ). For a dump unit I just continued using the spotlights as the seemed to work previously, when I first hooked the inverter up the turbine turned in light wind and all the LEDs did what was expected then the next day the wind picked up and it all changed, now even in light wind the turbine is bogging down an only red LED is flashing.
This inverter unit says it has over voltage protection so dont think I cooked it. I think I might have to get the inverter unit tested by someone experienced with them as it is above my knowledge, any thoughts on this ??
rustyrod Senior Member Joined: 08/11/2014 Location: AustraliaPosts: 121
Posted: 07:05pm 18 Jun 2015
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Good, seems the turbine is working well.
Without the turbine connected but with the inverter plugged in and turned on, what is the status of the lights?
If it is red the inverter is not happy.
Have you still got the three batteries and the spot lights?
Can you connect up 24 volts and connect them through the one 24v spotlight in series to the inverter?
Can you connect up the 36 volts and connect them through the spotlights in series to the inverter?
The lights should light and will be fairly bright, but if they are full dazzling brilliance, then there may be a short in the inverter.
If lights are full brilliance put thin piece of wire in series with the batteries as a fuse.
Fuse size like a single 10 amp strand as used to wire 240v house lights. Use about 50mm.
The inverter should draw a fair amperage may even make the fuse slowly burn out, but if it POOF/SPLAT you got a short in the inverter I think.
1000 watts divided by 36 equals 27 amps.
Because you have the batteries and therefore a constant power source the inverter will suck all it can, up to 27 amps.
Therefore it should not blow a 30 amp fuse.
As to using the spot lights, you do not say their wattage, however saying 100 watts in series it is still 100 watts so 100 / 36 is only 2.7 amps.
Sorry if you had these as your dump load connected to the inverter it was WAY not enough.
You need a length of fence wire dangling in the air or wrapped around a tube.
There are many forums (including on the Back Shed Site) about dump loads and a few expensive good ones on the evilbay.
I know it has over voltage protection, but to what voltage 100 volts, 200 volts. I suspect the turbine got away when you were not looking and passed the maximum rating on the components inside the inverter.
HOW DO I KNOW YOU ASK?
been there, done that.
No 1 - fortunately it was a condenser that collapsed and shorted my genny reducing it to a crawl and heating up the wires into my regulator.
No 2 - Under direct load (read regulator shorted) into my 24 volt batteries in a storm it soon pushed the batteries to over 36 volts. The gases was coming coming up in bubbles as big as golf balls.
I pulled the wires and the arc was 25mm long before it broke contact, KERSPLAT much ozone.
I wasn't game to measure it and as I had a 32 volt to 12 voltage dropping battery charger, so I panic connected all the 3 resistors in parallel and wired it up. SMACK.
Slowed and loaded the genny enough for it to furl. WHEW!
The resistors were glowing I can tell you. Burnt all the mice pee off real quick. YUCK!
Now the damage, a few blown lights and the 24 to 12 regulator for the internet and the internet/phone boxes on the wall, the magic smoke, all gone.
I hugged my batteries and told them sorry about that. They cooled down eventually (but not forgave me) and the sediment sank to the bottom. Ah well, there goes a few years life.
What do I do now. Always be home when a storm comes and wire in the resistors before the storm comes. If I am away? not yet.
I am off for a road trip so I will let Big China down before I go and little Gigu is already down because together I got TOO much power.
One of these windy Inverters would fill a gap in my system.Always Thinking
thank you for all that info rustyrod very helpful, I think the inverter might be the problem as without the turbine connected and the inverter plugged in the red light is on and flashing. I hooked up the batteries again and the turbine worked as per normal. I will try hooking the lights in series to the inverter tomorrow as see what happens . I connected the turbine to the batteries then to the inverter and the same thing, the turbine stopped and voltage in batteries dropped to 1.5 volts ! from 33 and the LEDs did nothing but flash red.
Will keep tinkering tomorrow and try to isolate the problem, at this stage im leaning towards the inverter, thanks for the advise
rustyrod Senior Member Joined: 08/11/2014 Location: AustraliaPosts: 121
Posted: 08:34pm 18 Jun 2015
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Mmmm, Ok, Time to pull the lid of.
Look for big fat funny shaped condensers or splattered all over inside of case
Then the three leg thingos screwed to the heatsinks, well I hope they have three legs, except they may be a bit short and black
Or a big fat enormous Zener that took the lot and saved everything else
PS, unplug it from the mains first or you will have short burnt black legs!
took the lid off and every thing look normal, then I got the multimeter on to the three leg thingos, checked them all and one has a dead short. I looked at a youtube video and apparently the outside two legs should have some sort of resistance not a dead short. I am hoping this is the prob as I will source a new one and get the soldering iron out
domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873
Posted: 09:05pm 01 Jul 2015
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Hi,
Can you let us have the model name, number, price, etc. of this grid tie inverter?
Is it turning your meter backwards or does it add the power on?
I probably read a similar description of wind-based grid ties in Chinglish where they say, that if the wattage is too much for the dump load, they will just disconnect the dump load and the mill will then freewheel and self-destruct, great! Let's hope the furling then comes into play.
Like you I also had a lot of fun looking at all those youtube videos on how to fix those cheap Chines grid ties. Mainly blown three-legged things.
Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.
g'day, the inverter is a POWER INVERTER model SUN-1000G, it was $ 465 off ebay. I emailed the supplier and they agreed that the problem has been caused by a blown mosfet transistor which they are posting to me free of charge, I have not got it yet so the unit is still in pieces. As for turning the meter backwards I didnt have the turbine going long enough to see ( only went for 2 days before issues ) but I doubt the smart meter we have will go backwards, Im just trying to lower our consumption by supplementing with power from turbine, will let you know how it goes when I have it up and running again hopefully within a couple weeks, Im also in the process of making a new dump load from fencing wire to suit the wattage the turbine makes as per the article on the website. fingers crossed
domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873
Posted: 12:12pm 02 Jul 2015
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Thanks johnnyc. I believe Youtube is suggesting not to use the same MOSFETs but to instal a higher Amp/Volt one instead but I could be wrong.
One Western Power electrician suggested some older meters turn back but then have trouble recording the net usage.
Cheers
dom
Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.
Winston Churchill
domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873
Posted: 07:30pm 04 Jul 2015
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Hi again,
Just read an article about using an OMRON voltage sensing relay to ensure the voltage does not go too high and blow the GTI. The OMRON in that case was a K8AB-VS3 and it switched in the dump load when the settable voltage was exceeded.
Looking at those Chinese GTIs I noticed some had the notice attached that forwarding to Australia was not possible. Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.
thanks for that info, I looked up the relay and I might go in that direction if the inverter plays up again after I have put the new MOSFET in it ( they are not cheap, around $US 120 ), I'm hoping not to have an issue when I sort out a suitable/reliable dump load As for the forwarding GTI's to australia, I did not have an issue.
domwild Guru Joined: 16/12/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 873
Posted: 12:00pm 05 Jul 2015
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Am wondering if the GTI is calculating the wattage and only disconnects the dump load if the volts x amps is exceeding the rating of the dump load. In other words, the logic in the firmware might not be too worried if the voltage is excessive, it only does something if the product is too much.
Yes, the OMRON voltage sensing relay is expensive. Have a look at the schematic by a company called Solacity, which disconnects on overvoltage and connects the dump load:
If you have a look at the OMRON K8AB-VS group of voltage-sensing relays at the OMRON web site you can find a relay that fits. The relay in the schematic wants a 110VAC supply, which is not what we want.Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.
Winston Churchill
kitestrings Senior Member Joined: 23/04/2014 Location: United StatesPosts: 102
Posted: 05:36am 16 Jul 2015
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We've been using the Omron relay for protection of our charge controllers. Our system is not grid-tied, but it is a similar application to what Rob Beckers (salacity) has used with his Aurora inverters. The one we used has a 24VDC/AC source:
Omron K8AB-VS3 24VAC/DC
They're user adjustable and about $110 IIRC. Best ~ks
DaveP68 Senior Member Joined: 25/11/2014 Location: New ZealandPosts: 292
Posted: 03:36pm 19 Sep 2015
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Hi just want to clarify something with you about your setup, when you got 1080W output was that when the batteries were connected?
The reason I'm asking is you haven't stated what type of half cut (2x7C) satotors you are using i.e. 80 or 100 series?
My guess is 100 series as the maximum current from a half cut 100 series is 11A @ 68V = 750W (DC) running around 950 RPM from tests I've done. Your dual stators can provide a 1500W peak output. The maximum output current of a 2x7C 80 series stator is only 6A, with the voltage able go higher into the correct load.
So if your peak output is 1500W from 2x 100 series stators into a 22-60V GTI only rated at 1000W output with input requiring about 1100W to much power!! But the Sun 1000-G is for Solar operation ONLY with NO Dump Load which is essential for safe running of a Wind Turbine system.There are realities if you do not accept, will lead to frustration because you will be spending time on wrong assumptions and the results cannot follow! The Dunning Kruger Effect :)
g'day Dave. yes the 1080W was with batteries connected before I had the inverter , im unsure of the stator type, I assume the are the 100 series. the inverter I have is the model for wind turbines and has the outputs for the dump load on it, I am currently making a different dump load again from heating elements ( I have ditched the fencing wire idea ) .
I am going to now run a 48 volt battery bank in between the turbine and the inverter still with a dump load, my theory is that will make the input voltage a bit more stable for when gusty winds come through and take the initial spike in power when this happens.
Its all a learning curve
DaveP68 Senior Member Joined: 25/11/2014 Location: New ZealandPosts: 292
Posted: 02:53pm 20 Sep 2015
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Yes there are many versions of the SUN 1000G GTI, both solar and wind some with built in rectifiers too.
My advice is, if you don't need a battery don't use one as they can be a liability. You can loose a lot of energy (up to 50%) in the charge/discharge cycling of the batteries if you don't have a fancy DC-DC converter/Charge controller to maximize the energy transfer to the batteries.
It's best to take the output of the wind turbine and go direct into the GTI, that way the MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking) will produce the most efficient power curve from Low to High wind speeds. The dump load is more critical too, doing it this way. You have mains available from what you have stated so battery not required.
I know someone who got rid of their batteries and directly connected the wind turbine using 2x stators to a 22-60 GTI. They almost doubled the AC 'Peak' output from 500W to around 950W. Just goes to show how much of a hand brake the batteries where on that system. I'm not saying you can't use batteries but the setup is more complicated to get an efficient power transfer to the AC end which is what counts!There are realities if you do not accept, will lead to frustration because you will be spending time on wrong assumptions and the results cannot follow! The Dunning Kruger Effect :)
flc1 Senior Member Joined: 20/11/2011 Location: New ZealandPosts: 242
Posted: 09:44pm 20 Sep 2015
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Gday Johnnyc, if I were you I would stay away from the batterys if you are not relying on them for power,,,, if you have the grid..use it, heating the water with your dumpload is a good use of the excess power,allthough it sounds like you would get next to no heating from that amount of excess,as you probebly only get to max power now and then ,you can just buy the correct dumpload for your gridtie inverter on ( aliexpress.com ),and/or maybe look at getting a slighty larger inverter with dumpload, they are fairly cheap, keep things simple,lots of other inverters ,blades etc on that site ,almost everything you might need, good luck,,FredEdited by flc1 2015-09-22
Notice. New forum software under development. It's going to miss a few functions and look a bit ugly for a while, but I'm working on it full time now as the old forum was too unstable. Couple days, all good. If you notice any issues, please contact me.
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