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Forum Index : Windmills : Waterwheel project...
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9306 |
I have a pal who wants to get into using a waterwheel and battery bank + inverter etc, to power his remote shack up in the wop-wops. As I have always wanted to tinker with those F&P Smartdrive motors that many of you here use for windmills, I have obtained a Smartdrive motor with bearings etc(the whole assembly) to tinker with. It is a 42-pole 0.6mm type. I have been reading through all the pages on the site, on how to re-wire these for low-voltage operation etc, but I have to admit to being a bit of a novice with power generation systems like this. I understand that the waterwheel(in my case) will charge the battery-bank, which then supplies the inverter, which then supplies the 230v mains. That is simple enough to understand, but I guess I need to know about things like charging regulators etc and anything else of relevance. Just hooking the re-wired F&P motor to the battery bank and inverter could be problematic, easpecially if there is a bit of rain, and the waterwheel speeds up - I am guessing that I need some kind of regulation here... Can those of you in the know, prod me in the right direction in terms of what I actually need past the re-wired F&P motor/waterwheel. Thanks for any comments.  Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi Grogster Yeah you need a charge controller. It stops the battery becoming over charged, and damaged. A water wheel is easier to control than a windmill, as you shouldn't let a windmill free wheel, but that's not really a issue for a water wheel, I guess. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So you could probably get away with a basic solar charge controller, something simple that open circuits the water wheel when the battery has reached a charge state. But I've no experience with this, so see what others can suggest. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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Madness Guru  Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Depending on the design of the water wheel it could end up spinning twice as fast or more. How many RPM can a F&P rotor handle? There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Grogster, To point you in the right direction we would probably need a bit more info on the water wheel , is it a slow RPM large Dia or are you doing a high speed Pelton wheel and nozzle. Madness , well a F&P spins cloths at 1000RPM and I have seen 850+ in a blow. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9306 |
I am really teaching myself alot of this as I go, so I have no doubt that some of what I am thinking will be totally wrong - hence posting here first!  There are some very clever wind/water power people here... 
I have yet to rewire the F&P motor, and have yet to decide on the best options on that - I have to read the article on re-wiring the motors a few more times to get it fully into my head. Basically, I will be going for a slower RPM then for a high RPM. The guy lives away up on the top of a hill, and has plenty of wind about the place too, so we are looking at windmills as an idea too - he certainly is well placed for the wind thing. He tells me that on a windy day, it just about takes the roof off, so perhaps a small windmill would be the thing - you would not need huge blades, if it gets pretty windy up there one would think... As for the waterwheel, he plans to build a reservoir out of a 200 litre plastic water tank, then pipe the water down the sloping hill to the location of the waterwheel. That makes sense to me - creek will fill up reservoir, pipe will convey the water down to the waterwheel, where it should have built up a reasonable pressure to squirt out of a nozzle onto the top of the waterwheel. This is all theory at the moment - nothing built, but it sounds feasible on paper, anyway! Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
If the water is always flowing it will be the most consistent and reduce the amount storage you would need. How much flow (litres per minute} and what head (difference in altitude from source to generator) is available? Water power is also easier to work on from my experience, working on a generator on the ground is much easier than something 10 metres or more off the ground. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9306 |
At the moment, it is a trickle - he estimates about 2-3 litres per minute, but once we get some rain, it can increase to what he estimates to be around 50-100 litres per minute. Helpfully, the creek is passed under a road via a large concrete drain pipe, about 500mm in diameter, and he told me that with decent rainfall, this pipe can be quarter-full of constant flowing water. There is probably a way to calculate the real flow, but at this stage, these are just estimates. At this stage, he plans to place the reservoir right below the outlet of this concrete pipe, but naturally, there will be overflow outlets around the top edge of the tank, so that the excess water can just be dropped back into the normal run of the creek - that all sounds fine to me, provided the reservoir tank is correctly installed(not really my area). As for altitude, approximately 2 meters dropped in a run of about 300 meters from the reservoir tank. At that point, the hill takes another steeper plunge for about another 300 meters, and drops about 4 meters, so the "Second paddock" is a pretty steep drop. At this stage, we are talking about putting the waterwheel at the boundary of the 2nd paddock, but if needed, we could pipe down the steeper hill, but I speculate that the first paddock from the reservoir, although much more gentle incline, would PROBABLY be enough to generate a suitable pressure to drive a waterwheel. I say "Probably", as this is all in my(and his) head at the moment, and theory and practise don't always jive, do they?(rhetorical!) This is why I am trying to explain it here. If possible, I will see if I can get some photos of the layout of the land, and upload them here - if the above is not enough detail - that way you all can see what we have to play with... At this stage, I think the plan was to use 40mm PVC drain-pipe. Would that be big enough? As we are not trying to build a hydro-electric power station, 40mm pipe sounds about right to me - but I could be well off the mark here... Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
My advice ... 2 ~ 3 L/min is nothing /no power for the cost and the return on the water project go for wind power on top of the hill , if need be and you can run power down instead of water it will be cheaper . I know it rains a lot over there but you have a feast or famine , in this case I would be going for a Pelton Wheel and harvest in the high water flow times. Talk to Ecoinnovation , they are based in NZ and have good experience with all you are thinking about, you could waste a lot of money with no return. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9306 |
Cheers - I will check them out, and send link to my pal for him to talk to them. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| davef Guru Joined: 14/05/2006 Location: New ZealandPosts: 499 |
1 litre/sec over a 40mtr drop is 300Watts mechanical or about 150Watts/hour into a battery. 2 litres/sec (toward the top range of your quoted flow) at a 6 metre head is about 2 * 6/40 * 300W = 90Watts mechanical and you be lucky to get 30-40Watts per hour into your battery. And that is only during flood time. Have you looked into solar PV panels? Is the site appropriate? |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Just to add to what Davef said, at 40 meters drop you would have about 57 PSI with a 60 liter per minute flow rate. Now at 4 meter drop (as you quoted as max) you would have about 5.7 PSI with a flow rate of 60 liters per minute. (busting for a pee i might nearly equal that) Think about it! Do you really feel a low pressure and low flow rate supply like you have could even spin a F&P rotor to 80+ rpm, that would be required to even start to make a high enough voltage to reach cutin to a battery, and thats before current starts to flow to the battery (cutin point) With the 3 phase outputs shorted together on the alternator, try spinning the F&P rotor by hand and see the resistance once full load is applied to a stator. Then you also need to allow for friction loss within the pipe, that might cut your flow back to 30-50 litres per minute, depending on what size pipe is used. I envy people with a hydro source to generate power, as i think is the ultimate free energy source, but my gut tells me you are wasting your time, and wind or solar would be a far better option. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9306 |
Yes, I have to agree with you and davef on this one. What I do know, is that he gets plenty of wind up there, so perhaps we(me and my buddy) should be looking to refocus our attention here towards windmills.... I will propose it to him. His Internet access is non-existent where he is(no phone line), so I am passing all this on to him in printed form. EDIT: Perhaps I should clarify - he has no phone line, but does have one of those USB sticks that talks to the Internet via the cell-phone network, but that is a very expensive way to access the net... Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Its not always easy to help someone with advice on the best use of resources available for energy production. Many think that free energy is as simple as turning a wheel, well it is except you need a greater force of energy to extract "some" energy from it. And almost all alternators require speed (80 rpm+) to produce energy. Since you have some F&P parts and perhaps would be better suited to a wind turbine location. It might be worth talking to forum member fillm (Phill) as he makes windmill kits for the F&P, and also is the supplier for the ally GEO222 blades. When a well designed F&P mill with GOE222 blades, you have a reliable mill with exceptable output. If you choose you still get to build most of it, except Phill does the hard part of narcell design, with tail angles, blade hub mounts, yaw bearing, etc............ You can supply your own stator/s and shaft, bearings, etc. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9306 |
Sounds like a more viable plan - I will pass all this along. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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