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Forum Index : Windmills : some motos i have.
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| kevindion Regular Member  Joined: 28/07/2010 Location: ChinaPosts: 59 |
hi everybody i have some motos,like fan moto,air-conditioners moto for 150w,electric motor for 1.5kw.2800rpm,washing machine moto.etc witch type of moto i could stared with? |
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Downwind Guru  Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I don't think any of what you list is any good for making a generator. It would take a lot of work and reasonable cost to convert the motors you have, and then will still produce very little power. The easiest to convert is a DC motor or one which has a permanent magnet in it. Your basic AC mains motor is a waste of time and dollars to convert unless you have a machine shop with lathes and mills etc. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| itsandbits1 Regular Member Joined: 13/08/2010 Location: CanadaPosts: 81 |
I don't know what kind of wind you have there but if you turn one of those induction motors or a squirrel cage faster than its rated rpm it will produce well. The issue you would have is gearing up your shaft output to get to that rpm. The big commercial units use this type of system and it is possible; but not very practical for the diy |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
[quote]The big commercial units use this type of system and it is possible; but not very practical for the diy [/quote] Without permanent magnets how do you excite the windings??. The commercial boys normally use line power to excite the windings and this also give synchronization with the grid. Gearing on a small mill will be a failure. I dont intend to discourage you from your windmill build but the motors you have are a very poor choice for a windmill no matter how you use them. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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Greenthumbs Regular Member Joined: 05/12/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 40 |
Hi guys, Induction motors I have a few and was looking at the same idea but decided it was to hard as I have plenty of F&P motors. However I have come across this page that will shed some light on exciting the winding etc and doing the conversion. Converting Iduction motors to generators Hope this helps! Regards Damo |
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| itsandbits1 Regular Member Joined: 13/08/2010 Location: CanadaPosts: 81 |
there really is no "conversion" needed as far as I know if you can get your mill to spin over 1100-1750 rpm and over. If not you need gearing to get there, howerver you do it, belts, chain, gears. after the units are excited its like me , you don't need any thing else. a quick shot from a cap or run them up to speed with mains and let the wind take over and you are producing power. Cheap and simple but you need the rpm. Ok about the excited, a little too much info!!! |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
[Quote=itsandbits1] . . . if you can get your mill to spin over 1100-1750 rpm and over Lets do a little experiment to demonstrate the power needed to turn an induction motor at these speeds. See if you can find someone who has a bicycle with one of those little generators that rubs on the side wall of the tire. These are single-phase permanent-magnet alternators that generally pump out no more than 3 to 6 volts and an amp or two. Turn the bicycle upside-down on its handle bars and release the generator so it hits the tire and moves when the tire rotates. Now here's the fun part: Using this setup, turn the pedals so the tire rotates and turns the generator. Try it no-load at first, just to see how hard that is. Oh, I forgot something. Knowing that there's not much density in the wind, it would be unfair to use your hands or feet to turn the pedals, so use your tongue! See where this is going? Yes, you can use a ginormous set of blades and a pulley, chain or gear transmission to increase the speed needed, but once you've done that, the amount of power (read that raw torque) available to do any actual "work" just isn't there. That's not the end of the road, by the way. It's just to say for you to get from point A to point B, you'll have to devise a different scheme. Stick with proven building methods and you'll have a happier ending. I'm a bit of a rogue when it comes to following directions, but I'm old and debt free with lots of peanuts in my peanut jar, so I don't mind spending gobs of money of "projects". If you're in the same boat, have at it. If you're like most folks starting out in this wind energy adventure, try to follow someone else's successful build (read that -- stay clear of most of "Mac's" builds) for your first project. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Greenthumbs Regular Member Joined: 05/12/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 40 |
Yes Mac exactly this is the same conclusion I came to. Gearing needed and such high revs, ad once gearing then more power to turn the motor because of the gearing. AHHHH! too hard Keep it simple Simon is the way to go. Damo |
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| itsandbits1 Regular Member Joined: 13/08/2010 Location: CanadaPosts: 81 |
A-Not that I am trying to sell anyone on this idea,but that is a missrepresentation of the way it works. B- The two are not the same thing at all. the only drag in an induction motor is the bearing, it has no brushes or magnets and doesn't need them because it works by induction. And I think it is perfectly viable; all the big guys use it geared up. this is not to say the diy is in the same ballpark, let alone the same world. Now that we have that cleared up lets get this thing to run. How much power do you think one of you 12' hawts have available to them in the wind at 10-20 mph. Quite a bit eh??? Now use that same power to spin a hawt with the same size blade but geared up so the 4-5 hundred rpms get turned into the speed needed to get the induction charging, 10% loss of power, not critical. getting it up to speed when your controller says that the wind is blowing hard enough; 30 seconds off your batts would do it, it freewheels with only the blade helping to get it up to speed till it starts to charge. Again, I don't say this is the best, just that its pretty easy .=itsandbits1] . . . if you can get your mill to spin over 1100-1750 rpm and over Lets do a little experiment to demonstrate the power needed to turn an induction motor at these speeds. See if you can find someone who has a bicycle with one of those little generators that rubs on the side wall of the tire. These are single-phase permanent-magnet alternators that generally pump out no more than 3 to 6 volts and an amp or two. |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Lets just view the raw facts here, to spin a motor above 2800 rpm you would need a 1 to 10 gearbox to start with. I dont know if you have ever turned the shaft of a 1:10 box but it takes a lot of torque. This alone will kill the small mill. There is enough problems with 1:1 ratio lead alone 1:10.....Dreaming?? Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
[Quote=itsandbits1]the only drag in an induction motor is the bearing Well, that's at least correct . . . Oh! I just had a nasty thought: what about inertia and what about the eventual load? Hmmm . . . . I've heard it said you can't get something from nothing except in the world of "over-unity" but that's a horse of a different color. Speaking of horses, did you ever hear that little ditty about beating a dead one? I think that's where this is going. It's hard enough getting something sensible to work. If there's anyone on this forum, who is a believer of the unbelievable, it'd be me and this idea is just too over-the-top for even me! Nope, I don't think it'll work; sorry. 
. . . . . Mac ps Don't let my negativity stop you; build it and amaze us all! Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| Greenthumbs Regular Member Joined: 05/12/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 40 |
I agree with Mac, The horse is headed for the glue factory! However, don't let us put you off Kevindion. If you reckon its a goer then go for it! Prove everyone wrong. The human race would not be where it is if everyone did not follow their dreams by listening to the Na sayers. I am sure Mac would agree with me in saying that the only way to test if its going to work or not is trial and error. Even if you have a go and it fails, least you had a go. Damo  |
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| itsandbits1 Regular Member Joined: 13/08/2010 Location: CanadaPosts: 81 |
Well mac I think the horsey stuff your talking about is coming out the back end because what you are essentially saying is that the vawts you have built put no power out at that rpm. Well if that is the way it is , that is the way it is for you. I happen to know a kid or two that could put together a bicycle wheel vawt that could take a motor up to that speed. I really do not care who believes or not but I know the big boys use it for a reason. As I said ,I would not promote it for the diy but it is easy. By the way , for your info , new technology has come up with motors that run from 800 rpm up on induction. They could go lower but the windings get expensive but I would bet thats what the big guys use. No hard feelings please, just don't shoot the horse cause the rider won't give him the reins Well, that's at least correct . . . Oh! I just had a nasty thought: what about inertia and what about the eventual load? Hmmm . . . . I've heard it said you can't get something from nothing except in the world of "over-unity" but that's a horse of a different color. Speaking of horses, did you ever hear that little ditty about beating a dead one? I think that's where this is going. It's hard enough getting something sensible to work. If there's anyone on this forum, who is a believer of the unbelievable, it'd be me and this idea is just too over-the-top for even me! Nope, I don't think it'll work; sorry.
. . . . . Mac ps Don't let my negativity stop you; build it and amaze us all! |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
You keep quoting "The Big Boys" well the home builder dont fit this catagory, never have never will. For your information "The Big Boys" are starting to copy the home builder as it is more effective, just look back through the forum at some of the posts from the guys that work for "The Big Boys" and the information they have posted on the commercial mills and the direction they are taking. As for induction motors running at lower rpm, is not new technology and have been doing this for years, and yes they are more expensive to build. The whole point here is not to prove that a induction motor wont make a generator, but to point out that it will make a very poor generator without lots of mods and even then its not a good choice. If it was practical and they were worth the conversion than dont you think we would be all doing it. The information we give here is to try to steer people in the right direction for the best out come. Not to give support to bad ideas and watch them fail. It takes as much work to build a good mill as a poor mill, so why would we promote the building of a poor design. I would much rather tell someone the design is rubbish and see them find a better solution and put their efforts into building something that will work well, rather than seeing them flog a dead horse. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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isaiah Guru Joined: 25/12/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 303 |
It would be a lot easer and cheaper to start out with a ECM motor or a permanent dc magnet motor. These can be found on e bay and around the salvage places.an AC servo motor will also work out well. The higher the amp rating the better!! You take the motor rpm's divided by the volts and take that answer and multiply it by 15 and this will tell you how fast the motor will have to turn to produce usable 12v dc. You'll have to build or incorporate a rectifier if you use one of the ac motors. The first thing you have to know what is the annual average wind speed in your area?? You can get a rough idea from your local news. This is the power factor to turn the blades. If your wind speed is 5-7 mph you wont make much power from it. Its also a very good idea to supplement your turbine with solar panels. The ECM motors have their magnets in or on the armature, this is good as you can rewire the windings to get the most output. The dc motors with the magnets in the fields and the wire windings in the armature you take what you get its very hard to rewind an armature.If you can find one with good numbers it will work good for you. as Pete said it takes the same money to build a poor one as a good one. so start off with the best shot for success. There is an awful lot of experience and knowledge on this forum! URL=http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11- 01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx>The Plowboy Interview[/URL> |
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| itsandbits1 Regular Member Joined: 13/08/2010 Location: CanadaPosts: 81 |
I totally agree with the last two posts as far as non viability of the induction motor for the purposes we are dealing with here. as far as the big boys, they are all over the net and we all know who they are and what they use, go to the sites or research the technology they use and most of them use this process. I said lots of times that I didn.t think it was for this group but I have tried it and it works perfectly well and the 10% losses I quoted are very high to the actual loss. That being said, I find the pma much easier to deal with myself and would not reccommend the induction for the purposes you talk about either. Then you talk about rewinding motors and stators as if this is the easiest job in the world. I always told my kids, Take a mouthfull, taste it feel the texture, after its gone down think about it. If you can tell me you don't like it after an honost try, then I will never ask you again. Try it you might like it. |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Is it anythink like eating your greens as i like them
Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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niall1 Senior Member  Joined: 20/11/2008 Location: IrelandPosts: 331 |
i,m missing something here....there is a link on this forum a while back to a utube which shows a guy (teenager) who built a viable geared induction motor 300w mill looking at his utubes he seems to be pursuing the idea ...maybe he will abandon it later.. i hope he dosent,... niall |
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| kevindion Regular Member Joined: 28/07/2010 Location: ChinaPosts: 59 |
i missed this post after i posted it. 
thks for your feedbacks,guys.i already working on it. |
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