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Forum Index : Microcontroller and PC projects : Programming (and not bricking)

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Dylan
Regular Member

Joined: 17/06/2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 81

Posted: 09:12am 06 Jul 2013

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I'm on a tight budget, but you have to speculate to accumulate. So far I have used only USB, both to upgrade my Duinomite to 4.3 and more recently on a cheap Arduino clone (multiple PWM needed for my main project).

Unfortunately I'm also somewhat anal about understanding everything, but I'm getting older too, so things are going much slower than when I was young and brash.

Anyway, I just don't understand programmers in the micro-controller sense of the word. They scare me, because whether it is over USB (which I am beginning to understand very vaguely) or using a more expensive device, they are still too much of a black box to me. This despite reading the available documentation (so I am aware that PIC sends 4 ASCII letters as code).

It seems they should be as cheap as chips. But even clones are expensive, and since they tend to use the manufacturers' own devices, it seems odd that they seem to make such a big profit on the hardware costs, when putting them in the hands of developers might make their own products more successful.

Is it that there is a balance between developers getting free samples of chips (<3 PIC for sending me an MX795 even if I'm not quite sure what to do with it yet)?

Since PIC did that, I'm strongly considering getting a "physical" programmer soon. But I can't see how an MX4.. (or whatever is in PicKit 3) has the storage. Does it use EEPROM also?

And although their top-end (SoftICE? Doing this from memory, sorry) offering is out of my range, I simply am not experienced enough to judge if the middle would be a better long-term investment.

One important issue for me is bricked chips. I am fearful because I don't have the experience that if I make an error over USB my device will be rendered useless - and that perhaps even ICSP/JTAG won't help. Speaking of JTAG: why do I need different programmers for different manufacturers in the first place?

And if I feel like this - an experienced software developer who in 1987 and 1990 did basic hardware courses as part of computer science - what of others? One of my aspirations is to teach this stuff in a limited manner as an extracurricular activity. By a limited manner, I mean that GPIO is not my main interest, but that I would like to recommend parents of my age group to buy MMBasic compatibles, but also the Arduino family for support, or https://code.google.com/p/python-on-a-chip/ (which doesn't yet support PIC32 and SL4A which also supports Python).

To end my long ramble, here is what I would like to see happen. Standalone modular systems with MMBasic x.0 (no new features over x-1.y, just an ultra-stable release) with support for standard I/O (i.e. keyboard and VGA) and SD card. I believe that Microchip can ship pre-programmed MCUs (with customer sticker and/or coloured dot) for peanuts (+$29 start-up cost). But also an ecosystem where owners can upgrade to new versions of not only MMBasic, but RetroBSD, Python, or a "Turbo Pascal" style environment, but also to know that it will work!

And to rerail after the ramble: what programmer to buy? Or is USB actually mostly harmless?

MicroBlocks

Guru

Joined: 12/05/2012
Location: Thailand
Posts: 2209

Posted: 09:39am 06 Jul 2013

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If you want to use PICS get a pickit 3.
It is a one time investment. USB works when the bootloader is present.
If not then you need to program the bootloader and for that you need a pickit or other programming tool.
I use the pickit, and while it was troublesome in the beginning, after a few upgrades it works great and fast. It also allows you to debug/single step through your code which can be a real saver.
The program on the go function is neat, but i use it only a few times. It works and it can program devices with a maximum of 512Kb Flash.

Microchip has a programming service and it will save you some time, not money for that you need to buy in bulk, which unfortunately starts to get interesting when you buy 100 or more. If you want to buy, we maybe can share orders to get the quantity discount.
(Ik spreek nederlands dus als je dat wenst kun je mij een PM sturen).

The last part of you post was one of the reasons i started with my Blox. There is a lot out there but not really friendly for beginners. MMBasic from Geoff is a great way to introduce hardware control with computers. I will make one of my blox 100% compatible with the Color Maximite and probaly one that is 100% Mono Maximite (still have to think about that one). It then is just put in the plug and away you go.

Microblocks. Build with logic.

Dylan
Regular Member

Joined: 17/06/2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 81

Posted: 10:21am 06 Jul 2013

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Hey TZ (Paul?), last time I tried to PM you your inbox here was full. Fortunately you liked my post here and I didn't make an idiot of myself! Maar we kunnen gewoon op dit forum openbaar spreken. We are on the same wavelength, I just am inexperienced at things which some here take for granted.

Is https://www.olimex.com/Products/PIC/Programmers/PIC-KIT3/ a decent clone? Better alternatives for clones? Or go for the real thing?

I have two completely different interests. One is not a secret (PM me, I've shared it with Kon), the other is very simply teaching "microcomputing" to small groups. USB OTG would allow a mobile phone to be used as "screen" and "co-processor".

Maybe I should program in the blind.

kiiid

Guru

Joined: 11/05/2013
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 671

Posted: 12:56pm 06 Jul 2013

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Rod, we are all trying to do here what you have described in your post. True, different people take different routes for that, but I believe everyone visualises pretty much the same concept in their mind.

What I can say it is a long way to get there. MMBasic is a good start, but that's not enough. Without appropriate support, additional hardware, some word in the right ear, things like those, although not directly connected to the development, are important to guarantee enough support without which it is simply a pointless exercise.

Speaking in that direction, I have some more thoughts, but that material will go in another post soon, when the time for it is right.

Now, back to your immediate question - Pickit3 is a great choice (I've had horrible experience with clones and won't recommend any of them). The most important thing to know when working with Pickit3 - do not press the button on it, when working with PIC32. Even better - remove it altogether and all concerns end there. Pickit3 is a very safe choice without the button.
Another, even better choice is ICD3, but it costs a bit more. If you can afford it though, go for it.

Kon

http://rittle.org

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MicroBlocks

Guru

Joined: 12/05/2012
Location: Thailand
Posts: 2209

Posted: 12:59pm 06 Jul 2013

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No experience with the one from Olimex.
They make good stuff so i trust this one to work very well.

Not Paul but Jean, and my inbox is pretty empty, always been as i keep it clean.

Microblocks. Build with logic.

JohnS
Guru

Joined: 18/11/2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3802

Posted: 04:41am 07 Jul 2013

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I got a cheap PICkit3 clone, works fine. From Sure Electronics. Never used the button on it and doubt I will.

Bear in mind a lot of people are now using Raspberry Pi. Very cheap as mass market and not looking for profit.

John

OZ1LQB
Newbie

Joined: 07/07/2013
Location: Denmark
Posts: 4

Posted: 01:21pm 07 Jul 2013

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Hi all.
Dylan i have both The"real"and olimex one.
both Work very good but i find that the olimex look really ugly..
buy the one you get where you live..
i also have a pickit 2 from sure it is a bag of s*** i will buy from him Again.
all the best from Claus in Denmark

Bryan1

Guru

Joined: 22/02/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1344

Posted: 10:00pm 07 Jul 2013

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My first real pic programmer after the pic40pro I made( which I ended up swapping 10 micro servos for) was ICD2 olimex clone I bought from Sparkfun. Oneday when programming silly me had 5V on the pgd line and ended up blowing 3 trannies. Anyway the support from the sparkfun and olimex guys helped me online to get to identify the problem and I repaired it myself. To this day it has worked rock solid. I have bought a pickit3 and use that for reprogramming the module and with using MplabX IPE it is a simple case of reprogramming a pic32 in the matter of minutes. Honestly for the price of a genuine pickit3 I wouldn't go with anything else. One thing I do like about my ICD2 clone is it does show what the pic is rather than just a revision number the pickit3 does but as one sets the pic in Mplab these days they figured why bother showing the device number in the software.

Regards Bryan

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