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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Costly sparky work
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| Boppa Guru  Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
I been trying to do the right thing and altho I am an elec fitter, I decided to get a quote for the to house wiring to be done by a proper licensed sparky Now mind you, this is just for the temp `miners cabin' demountable (new) I'll be living in while building the house itself (as a owner builder) This is basically a transportable 40ft container, moved to the site and set up(its prewired to all current Oz standards at time of build) as used throughout Qld in MAC camps for the mining industry So I have to pay the local electricity supplier to have a `temporary' building pole installed- pole plus a basic tin box with a single phase meter and single rcd/cb connected to a 15a gpo- thats just over 8g (owie- use some lube next time guys- ok I will give them that they have to hook to the powerlines etc etc- but I still pay for the materials on top of that ie that fee is just to hook up the wires, I have to pay for the pole,box,gpo,cb,rcd etc etc The wiring is included in the building is out to either a 15a `caravan' inlet or a `fusebox' consisting of a c/b in a plastic box- havent decided as yet heres the stupid part- if I decide to do the right thing and have a sparky set it up- $1200.... pole to hut is just over 20m and I have to dig the trench, or else it goes up in price so effectively- to dig the trench myself and have him do the `wiring' is $1200 or dig the trench myself, buy a 20m 15A caravan power cord and put that in conduit $90 or do a `bushie' and just run the 15A powercord from the pole to the hut hanging off a bit of rope $22 what really gets my goat is that some people say according to Australian standards, I cant do options 2 or 3 legally well sorta... IF I live in N.Z, which uses the exact same A.S., I can I only cant if I happen to live in .au (look it up, under the exact same electrical rules, NZ people can do some wiring themselves like gpo or light switch replacements, while Ozzies cant) Apparently Ozzies are dumber than NZers... (or at least dumb enough to let sparkies rip us off with closed shop ETU garbage) At this point, well I'm looking at a container with batts and panels just to build the house myself (the only reason I was getting the pole put in was for the jobs I dont want to do myself, the builder for the pool etc wont work onsite with gennys or off grid power, they want a builders pole- OK or maybe I'll just do the pool myself as well.... ARRRGGHH!!!! ok rant finished Anyone else want to add their tale of woe? |
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BobD Guru Joined: 07/12/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 935 |
I'm an old ex elec fitter from way back. I see you are in QLD. From what I've heard, you picked the worst state in OZ to be doing this. If it involves electrical work I've heard you need a permit to pick your nose. The ETU got at the QLD gov a long way back. There are quite a few QLDers on here. They may have more info. Here in VIC we'll probably end up worse than that soon. |
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Grogster Admin Group  Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9306 |
There have been several articles in Silicon Chip magazine about the same bureaucratic nonsense. There are pros and cons of each. In Australia, you can - in theory - be sure the job is done to standard, becasue a sparkie HAS to do it by law. In New Zealand, you can't be sure it is done to standard, if it was done by the home-owner. I have seen some home-owner wiring, and......probably best I don't use the exact expletive I was thinking of just now..... Power outlet loops were the wiring is really bad, exposed or freyed, and loose under load this could be a bit of a fire risk, but at the end of the day, there are no significant numbers of electric-shock deaths linked directly to bad home-owner wiring over here, nor house-fires as a direct result of home-owner wiring, so it probably is relatively safe enough for home-owners to do it, PROVIDED they do it the right way(have instructions), and not just the way they THINK it should be terminated. Another thing is the electrical warrant-of-fitness we have over here. I guess Australia has something similar, as we use the same standards. Here in NZ, you would never get an electrical-WOF, if the inspector thinks that you had done any of the wiring in the house. In that event, you then have to get in a sparkie to check over the whole house, and sign it off. That is expensive. You also cannot get any self-respecting sparkie over here to sign-off on any work not done by them(or other registered sparkie), so you CAN wire up you own house, but the inspector would never sign-off on it if not done by a registered sparkie, so you can never get the connection to the grid approved.  So, there are conditions over here too. NZ is not quite an electrical free lunch. However, for just replacing a wall outlet or light-switch etc, then any home-owner can do that, yes, and the local hardware shops all sell the fittings - anyone can buy them. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Insurance is a consideration. If you wire up your own house, and your workmanship led to a house fire, your insurance company wont pay. But I guess they would have to prove the fire started in electrical work you performed. If a TV caught fire, then your could argue it was not related to your workmanship. Good luck with that, insurance companies can be pricks if they can find any way to avoid payment, so you might need to take them to court. Electricians can be expensive, even just getting a sparky to my door for 30 minutes work costs $300 plus, cause I live 20 minutes out of town. Its also difficult to find a sparky who actually knows what they are doing, I went off grid and the first sparky I spoke to didn't have an clue how to wire up a inverter! So I understand why some people will take on their own repairs. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| greg199 Newbie  Joined: 03/11/2015 Location: AustraliaPosts: 39 |
I think you have the right idea Boppa in doing it all yourself - bypass the rip off people. That's always my strategy as well. Keep looking for a reliable and sensible sparkie since you will need them for the legal work. For the costs you have outlined it seems a decent generator would be the way to go during your build. It will last forever. Then ensure your house is totally off grid in which case your generator may well be part of that system. If the "builder" cannot work with a generator then find another (real) builder. |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
The saddest part is that I don't want the grid connected, once the house is finished, it will be removed as the house is going to be fully offgrid, it will only be installed for my temp miners crib and of course the tradies who want one for the jobs I dont want to/cant do and wont use gennies What annoys me is that with the 15a gpo in the builders pole fusebox, and a 15a socket on the demountable, I am effectively paying $1200 to have a 20m extension cord plugged in at both ends....  |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9306 |
The beauty of going off-grid, is that you don't need to be compliant to be connected to it.  NOT that I am suggesting anyone should do a sub-standard electrical wiring job on their own off-grid system, but because it is off-grid, you can do whatever the hell you like - because you are not connecting to the grid.  Grid-tie-inverter setups excluded - they are another kettle of fish in compliance terms and paperwork.(it never ends, this excrement....) Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Grogster Admin Group Joined: 31/12/2012 Location: New ZealandPosts: 9306 |
What's their reason for NOT using a genny? Even the cheap ones are reasonably OK in terms of output these days. Cheapest of the cheap might give you issues with sensitive electronic stuff, but power-tools will work with just about anything you can power them with, and generally won't care one jot about a non-perfect sine-wave, or slight frequency errors. As I say, electronic stuff is a bit different, but for the purposes of BUILDING, I would expect any old genny with sufficient power to run the tools they want/need to use to be perfectly fine. Smoke makes things work. When the smoke gets out, it stops! |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
Its not even the builder (thats me of course) doing it all legal like, applied for owner builders lisc and will be doing the course as well So far its the concrete polishers for the floor and the pool people, they simply told me that they wont work with gennys or even in offgrid houses, thats their company policy, take it or leave it Funnily enough I was even wanting the sparky to do the house itself properly and up to code, just in case at some point in the future it may be hooked up to the grid, but that might now be off the cards,lol Even just getting a hold of the regs is near impossible to do legally, I ended up d/l a torrent to get the latest version (which refers back to another half dozen ones, so now I got to track those down as well) Sad part is that as a elec fitter I am all too aware of the dangers of bodgy wiring, but to do it `legally' (even tho I technically dont have to) is likely to not even be possible without major issues (I had the same issues, I tried 3 elecs, none of which even wanted to know about wiring an offgrid house,even though all I wanted was for them to do the same as they would for an ongrid house, and I end up feeding power into the main grid connect point instead of energon... simples) I suspect it would be easier to just lie and say it will be hooked up to the grid, get them to wire it up, then just connect the inverter myself after its all done and they have gone.... |
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| greg199 Newbie Joined: 03/11/2015 Location: AustraliaPosts: 39 |
I'm also curious to know WHY these people refuse to work on off grid houses. Apart from that. I'd just keep looking for companies who have some balls. I've also had enormous trouble sourcing suppliers for my owner build project in QLD. The problems are not just with QLD suppliers. The same laziness, incompetence and down right cheating behaviour is prevalent in companies all over Australia. Keep looking and don't give up. There ARE decent people and companies around. Try looking in these magazines for some contacts: Renew, Sanctuary, The Owner Builder. You'll also have a great chance to get some referrals during your owner builder course. |
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TassyJim Guru Joined: 07/08/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 6098 |
I won't bother discussing the 'legal' aspects but it is worth pointing out that a caravan lead is NOT supposed to be buried, or in conduit. It needs the free air to prevent overheating. VK7JH MMedit MMBasic Help |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
There is a rather strange lady and her son living in a donga (3m X 6m portable building ) near my place. The donga is about 8 meters away from the power pole. The electrician ran a cable between the donga and pole, at about 2.4m high. From memory, the cable had a integrated tension wire, seamed pretty tight when he was finished with it. It was only supposed to be temporary, but they've been living there now for 4 years. No running water, a porta-loo, and council have given up trying to move them on. Like I said, strange, but point is, the sparky installed it, so it must be a legal option. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
Interesting My temp donga has full approval by council as long as it has running water (pair of 10000l tanks that will eventually be feeding the house when finished) and septic tank (portaloo not acceptable)- so it too will start off hooked to the donga, but eventually be connected to the house It will have council approval for 5 years (same as owner builders permit) with a basically automatic renewal available for a further 5 years (The donga itself had to have a whole bunch of other approvals for it, height above ground, distance from nearest trees, fire resistance etc( that I was able to get from the manufacturer Previously many people built a garage and lived in that while building the house, that isnt allowed any more tho, as garages arent classified as a habitable dwelling by council any more |
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| M Del Senior Member  Joined: 09/04/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 155 |
Even more ridiculous is the requirements for wiring comms cable in a house, anything inside the wall is supposed to be done by a registered cabler, in some cases costing more than a sparky. As a mechanic I have worked on, rebuilt/modified/designed, wired, switched, connected etc everything from mini minors to heavy earthmoving equipment, as well as gen sets up to 32kva. The electronic boards were done by the sparkies. There have also been a variety of electric forklifts with fairly large sized batteries and power usage as well as caravans and field power systems with lighting systems mounted to aluminium framed tents. All legal. Haven't cooked anyone yet. But by law I can not replace a power point or light socket. Yet an electrician can buy and fit brake & steering parts to his ute. Go figure Mark |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
I have a quote on a 12 x 3m `granny flat' but customised, one internal wall removed (so only 1 bed) no aircon,elec stove or hws supplied and sliding door moved to `lounge room' (formerly 2nd bed before wall removal so kitchen/dining/lounge one large openplan room) quite reasonable price as well delivered onsite for under $35g |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
These people didnt get council approval, and they havn't paid rates for years. It is their land though. Council have sent dozens of "Please remedy" letters, a few visits, and are now in the courts. Last time I spoke to council they were at a loss what to do next, normally people move on by this time. Just goes to show, councils are pretty powerless at the end of the day, you can basically do what you want on your land. Be interesting to see what happens next. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
Interesting the variations between councils My old council (NSW) after 2 years arrears would take you to court (usually) win and then could either apply to have wage deductions made, or at worst, sell the property, deduct the outstanding rates and would give you the rest back (usually at 5 years by this stage) Of course they usually sold at auction, and would sell the property at whatever price covered the outstanding rates, some people got absolute bargains, often well under the land value alone, let alone the value of any buildings on it |
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| joebog1 Senior Member Joined: 07/11/2015 Location: AustraliaPosts: 114 |
You need a politician!!! somebody who knows f**k all about everything and continually tells you about it. Wire it yourself !!! I am an electrical engineer, with an honours degree. I can design you a power station making megawatts of power In that spec I nominate ALL cable sizes and methods used to wire it. I can specify what colour screwdriver handles will be approved and which ones wont. LEGALLY I cant change a fuse !!!! ( replaced with CB's these days) Use decent cable ( watch out for Bunnings stuff, its got VERY thin insulation) Do it once and do it properly. SIMPLE as that. As an aside your job will probably be better than a sparkies anyway. Short story: A mate moved a big queenslander and had the wiring put in from builders pole ( now the server pole) cost $3500 for thge feeder cable, trenching conduit and cable. He was complaining that everytime the hot water switched on the lights dimmed. I set up a meter and monitored the power coming in. HUGE volts drop from the underground feeder ( single phase mind you, over 120 yards) So we pulled up the cable !!!!  At each end it was 32 mm sq. in the middle of the conduit it ranged in size from 32 mm to 16mm in various colours/ TAPED twist wire connections NO SOLDER or heatshrink. The sparkie was licenced!!!! North Qheensland Beautiful one day and totally stuffed the next. Joe |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
Sad to say, Iv'e heard (and seen personally) similar things -esp in new housing construction estates- the cookie cutter ones- shudders What they do in those beggars belief, and yet they all had their COC's..... LOL- I thought at first you were quoting Sir Joe there ;-) |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
Actually Joe 32mm^2 seems a bit light on for a house, esp with an approx 100m run thats only 6mm, and as an example friend recently had an induction cooker installed, the sparky pulled the existing 4mm tpe and fitted 6mm tpe, and thats just for the cooker! Ive seen 6mm tpe used in workshop/back sheds and they were only a fairly short 20m run back to the fusebox, longer than that they put in individual 10mm cables, so 32mm^2/6mm for an entire house seems very light over that distance (add in the splices and 16mm^2/4mm) and I'd have to say that the `sparky' probably wasnt one.....) Grounds for investigation as that install could be quite dangerous, certainly the people that paid for the install didnt get what they were supposed to, and could likely get either a substantial bit of their money back, and/or get it done properly where it isnt likely to fuse out when they fire up an aircon while cooking dinner with the tv on...  |
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