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domwild
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Joined: 16/12/2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 873

Posted: 01:10pm 08 Aug 2014

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My 65HP tractor has a 143Ahr battery so it is probably suffering by charging with a 10Amp charger. The charger stays at 10Amps and 14.7VDC for a long time and even leaving it on overnight seems to drop it only to one Amp in the morning. Never gets a bulk charge. Too stingy as a pensioner to pay $200 for a 20Amp charger.

So I have been dreaming to use my cheap welder as charger and picked up an old idea of Glenn's via Dr Google to use the welder. Measured the voltage and it read not more than 1VAC when set to 100Amps? The welder works perfectly now that I use proper rods and no longer cheap Chinese rods and I can pull a long bead and am happy.

The plate talks of 43VAC so measuring the voltage without welding, i.e., no load is confusing me.

Looking at 120 Amp rectifiers I found that if I had to buy them via e.g. RS would cost nearly as much as this $100 transformer+fan+thermal overload so I have given up the conversion to DC welding and/or batt. charging.

What am I doing wrong to read only 1VAC?

As most of you are seasoned welders judging by Glenn's welds I have another question:

Have to weld a 1.5" end of ram where I managed to break off the yoke at the end misjudging the geometry of linkages. This outside of the piston is chromed and most likely hardened judging by the crystalline structure of the break at the thin thread end (1 inch). Will need to weld my mild steel concoction of a yoke to this ram end, so do I need a special rod for this weld? I will grind off the chrome. Will need to cool off the rod so the internal ring gaskets in the cylinder don't get damaged. Managed to find someone who can drill a 38mm hole (=1.5") and two 1" holes for the pin end for $20, another quote was $100 for drilling and $50 for welding.

Any special rod?

Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.

Winston Churchill

yahoo2

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Posted: 04:00pm 14 Aug 2014

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In my opinion 10 amps is oversized for that battery. Is it a manual charger? is that why you are removing it before the battery stops taking charge? you should have a small charger that can trickle charge (in the 0.8 - 3 amp range)get the battery as full as you can with the 10 amp charger then swap to the little one and LEAVE IT ON for a couple of weeks.

Do that every 4 to 6 months and you will rarely have battery problems.
Take me as an example I average around 6 years per battery for 30 batteries. I buy 4-5 batteries a year.
A friend of mine who doesn't keep his batteries charged buys 10 batteries a year for his fleet of 18 batteries. He is averaging less than 2 years per battery.

I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...

norcold

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Joined: 06/02/2011
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Posts: 670

Posted: 06:35pm 14 Aug 2014

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Domwild
Did a similar break on a ram shaft on an old Fordson front loader. Wasn`t worth a new ram or an expensive specialist welding repair, so tackled it with mild steel rods. Ground the shaft end to about a 60deg taper and run successive welds with ordinary mild steel rods. Worked a treat for many years use.
Use the same mild steel rods to weld old spring leafs as replacement for wear skids on slashers.(they wear better) Found by running a quick rough weld than immediately going back over with another more penetrating weld, the weld holds. Believe the first weld softens the hard steel allowing the follow up weld to have strength and not be brittle where it joins to the spring leaf. Not sure that is why it works just know it does.

We come from the land downunder.
Vic

domwild
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Posted: 12:33pm 15 Aug 2014

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Yahoo:
Thanks for help. Using the C/10 formula for the 143Ah tractor battery, we are looking at 14A or larger. Didn't I read on this forum or other fora that batteries need the occasional higher amps for a bulk charge to try to desulphate the plates? 10 Amps do not seem to do that but I could be wrong.

One afternoon and night appeared to me to be a long time for charging, this is why I disconnected the charger at the one Amp mark. The tractor started OK despite the cold weather but I will take your advice and leave it on. The tractor is under a roof but the charger is not supposed to be used outdoors but the heat generated inside the charger would keep the moisture at bay.

Norcold:
Also thanks for help. The 60 deg. taper is an excellent idea and as I have to do another one I will do it there. I was not game enough to keep on welding over the first weld as the temperature at the first wiper seal was getting too high despite wet rags for cooling. The ram was extended, obviously!

Looks like you are right that the first weld softens the structure of the steel, which was hardened based on my small knowledge of metallurgy (Knolege is Power!).

Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.

Winston Churchill

domwild
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Posted: 12:37pm 15 Aug 2014

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Yahoo: Manual? The only parameters I can set is the voltage (12 or 6, perhaps 24 also) and which battery type it is, lead acid or SLA I believe, two choices. That may make it a manual charger.

Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.

Winston Churchill

yahoo2

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Posted: 06:24pm 15 Aug 2014

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Sorry, I have misinterpreted your first post. I thought you meant the charger was putting in one amp less that what it started at. At one amp I would expect the battery is well and truly full.
if the charger does not trigger and switch to a float voltage (13.5- 13.8V) either by a timer or a voltage trigger then it is a manual charger.

From memory the C/10 thing is the maximum charge rate that should be allowed. WLA and AGM trojans are rated at 12% max and some gels are up to 17% It only becomes an issue if you are using solar to charge batteries and need to get the batteries charged before the sun sets. there is not a lot of margin to play with if you are deep cycling a lead acid battery bank every day.

the basic rule of thumb with a manual charger is you keep charging until the amps become stable ie stop reducing
that is going to be somewhere close to 1% of the batteries capacity, less for a new battery more for a older more damaged one.

for example an old crusty 2500Ah bank gets down to 35 amps (@ 14.8 volts), I know it is getting close so I wander past every 10 to 15 minutes and check the amp meter to see if it is still dropping, as soon as it reads the same as the last time I stop charging. sometime it is finished at 28amps other times it gets down to 22A. beyond that point all that is happening is losing water and wasting power.

The difficulty is when batteries start to gum up and develop a high internal resistance, a large charger pushes electricity in faster than any chemical reaction can happen so the battery just boils the acid or the charger thinks its full and switches off. Hence the reason for the trickle charger.

I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not...

norcold

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Posted: 11:03am 16 Aug 2014

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If I may extend your thread a little, Domwild , in reference to battery water use, I note with my 48v lead acid bank, I am adding water more frequently as they age. Should have made a written record from the beginning and would have been able to display this graphically. No cell is taking more than others which is a good sign. It is not enough to be concerned(I hope) just an observation.

We come from the land downunder.
Vic

domwild
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Location: Australia
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Posted: 11:58am 16 Aug 2014

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norcold,

Thanks for that. As I love my tractor more than my wife I check the water frequently, which is not easy as the battery holder covers many of the six filler plugs.

The previous owner had overfilled the air filter, which is an oil bath type. The oil then was sucked by the fan towards the fins, which clogged up unseen behind the battery. Result: Overheating, thermostat gone, etc.

After the advice received I shall stick with the 10Amp charger. Every time I get back to my beloved tractor I shall charge the battery as I only get there every four to six weeks. A 143 Ahr is probably called a 850 CCA (cold cranking Amp) battery and is very expensive and as heavy as an Italian mother-in-law!

Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.

Winston Churchill

norcold

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Posted: 07:27am 17 Aug 2014

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Of interest, tractor wouldn`t be a Super Major would it?

We come from the land downunder.
Vic

domwild
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Joined: 16/12/2005
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Posts: 873

Posted: 12:53pm 17 Aug 2014

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norcold,

No, it is a Fiat 650. Talking batteries again: In the present "Owner Builder" magazine one chap managed to get his battery bank (2V, huge) ex Telstra and bemoans the fact that those batteries are no longer available and those batts in his opinion last 30 years.

This issue also led me to write to the Fed. Minister for the Env. as one forum suggested Telstra stopped selling to the public as Telstra batts. were found dumped in the bush. Not so! It is not an environmental decision. It is a business decision from Telstra not to sell them. I put this complaint up on Whirlpool and was told the truth.

Sad to see pallets and pallets of batts going to China at scrap metal dealers. Not that you are allowed to see those pallets any more as the larger chains are no longer selling scrap to the public anyway. They sacked most of the staff selling retail.

Taxation as a means of achieving prosperity is like a man standing inside a bucket trying to lift himself up.

Winston Churchill

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