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Forum Index : Other Stuff : workshop lighting
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yahoo2 Guru  Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
workshop lights, EASY, just bang up a heap of LED floodlights right? MMMmmmhhh... perhaps not. They are certainly all modern, sexy and high tech. In practice I have been underwhelmed with the effectiveness of the lighting. I purchased two 20Watt LED floodlights to use for lighting welding jobs (they do this brilliantly)and I thought I will try them as a general area light in the workshop and perhaps buy some more. What I failed to realise is that the light is very directional, it doesn't seem to matter where I put the lights they always leave a dark patch or I have to stand at a funny angle when I am working to stop my body casting a shadow over what I am doing. They really need a wide angle collimator and a diffuser to spread the light evenly. I didn't want to go back to the fluoro's or 400 Watt high-bays because of the wasted power and shorter bulb lifespan, etcetera. It wasn't until this week that I realised I have been seduced by the tech and forgotten the basics. This is not an office, factory of underground carpark, the lights are not on that much, so the amount of power they use (within reason) is not that important....and I probably wont run a light for 50,000 hours and wear it out. I am about to try an experiment to see what sort of "bang for your buck" I can get by refurbishing some old Fluoro's. I have heard that a quad phosphorous flouro tube coupled to a new electronic ballast will punch out a heap of light. The thing that put me off before, is that I had to buy a fancy industrial luminair to get the ballast and they are big $$$. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
HI Yahoo 2, I understand your concern with trying to do the right thing and reduce the power cost.. I've got a fair size workshop, around 80% footprint of the fllor area of the house .. I installed 8 twin fluro's @ $30 something each with difussers from bunnings .. Nice units (but don't let anyone tell you they keep the bugs out ).. OK, so 16 X40 watt fluros ,,say being on for 2 hours max (the handbrake screams at me after it's dark and wants some company -fair enough). So , my kilowatt cost is 25 cents off the grid ,,work that out, just a few cents for a brilliantly lit shadow free workshop . Not bad .. I've allways thought flouro's are the best , I used to work in telecom equiptment racks sorting out wiring mistakes --the led lights were absolutely useless , compared to the common 40 watt single fluro (the ones in the clear plastic tube).. I'd be interested in your "bang for your buck" info ,sounds like something that is new? Cheers Bruce Bushboy |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Yeah I agree, the good old fluro's offer the best light for cost/power. Recently I bought one of those Oatley Electronics kit 12v 10W spot lights, and its pretty bright. So bright that I feel its damaging to look at directly, and I noticed the same problem Yahoo mentioned, the light is a spot and casts very sharp shadows. I did experiment with a diffuser made from a 2 liter plastic mild bottle. Only slightly reduced the light output, but made a big improvement to the usable light. No sharp shadows and I could look directly at the lamp without hurting my eyes. I think LED technology isn't quite there yet. Its close, but its needs to be better diffused and a little less blue. Until then I'll stick with the good old fluro tubes. Speaking of which, I had a 12v compact fluro light that had lost its intensity, the tube had died. I pulled the electronic board out of it and just for fun, decided to see if it would power a standard medium sized fluro tube. It does, and has been for the last couple of months. Its now a yard light, draws about 1 amp and casts a good light. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Just realised why it sounded like such a great idea, Silicon chip wrote an article about it in May 2010. That is not going to deter me  I will still do the numbers on what it costs in up-front $ and running costs and fit out at least one shed. I've gone off a bit half cocked on this topic, I haven't got any stuff together for this project yet.
Bruce, I am looking forward to what the Google ads software makes of your "handbrake" comment. When you mentioned the gout flaring up in the solar tracker topic there was ads on the same page for mobility scooters, geriatric nursing facilities, cheap funerals, life insurance and all sorts of wonderful drugs.  I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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norcold Guru Joined: 06/02/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 670 |
Yeah went back to fluros in my shed, got a bit carried away with the saving power bit when first went off the grid. When I went back to fluros in the shed was advised by elecki to go all the way back and not use electronic starters ,they don`t like running off generators apparently. Often go into a new house that has those recessed LEDs in ceiling and wonder how the people put up with the shadows. Was that a square wheel briefly advertised on the 4ms intro. 
We come from the land downunder. Vic |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
Have to agree, fluros are the go. The standard cheap "warm white" domestic fluro tubes are probably o/k for inside the home. They give a much softer more restful light. For a workshop, where you are serious about seeing what you are doing, you can do a lot better with the "daylight" tubes that are a much more of a stark dazzling white. The good tubes will have the colour temperature of 5,000 degrees Kelvin written on the packaging, and that make a very big difference. They do cost a little more, but it is well worth it. There can also be a significant difference between brands of tubes. Best to buy a sample of a few different 5000K tubes to try. One will really stand out as being better than the rest. Replacing a few tired old tubes with good new ones will make it seem like you were working in twilight before. And no more watts are needed to do it. It's not just that the total light output is much higher with the better "daylight" tubes, but the light spectrum is very different and that really helps to see fine detail. Cheers, Tony. |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Interesting topic .. Has anybody tried these new 50 watt LED flood lights on their backyard/paddock ? I see they sell fairly cheap, around $40 , so if they are good, I'll install a couple to light up my area. I see you can even get up to 100 watt LED floodlight. They would cost little to run for a few hours ,,compared to those 120 watt paraflood lights, which ,by the way, I've noticed don't last very long ,mine a few months to a year or so . Bruce. Bushboy |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
With LED's clustered close together like that, the quality of the heatsinking is what will determine how long they last. I did notice a little asterisk on one ad that said "includes optional cooling fan" I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| isaK Newbie  Joined: 19/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
I was looking to add LED lighting across all 10 of the 6.5 metre (21.35 feet) joists on the ceiling in the garage. So I did a Google search and came across this page. After reading all the comments here, I must admit that I grew hesitant. However it then occurred to me that the thread started during August 2012, and the most recent post was during 26 May 2014. So, I have got to thinking, has LED technology improved enough to provide proper lighting to the workshop since then? I know that I had the ceiling downlights from barely illuminating LED lights (purchased during August 2011), to a bright room at night lighting LEDs once they were changed to something better a few months ago. So perhaps these types of strips could illuminate better than their 3-5 year old counterparts were able to back in the day? I've been looking around and plan on running one of these per joist: Anyone advise against it? Or anyone think that I should add something to this (like diffusers and the likes) to make it work? I'm not quite partial to fluorescent tubes, with or without covers/sheaths, due to the potential it has to be smashed every time a four metre piece of 2x4 moves up and down the workshop... or anything else that is long and solid. So, any ideas? Thanking everyone in advance. ~isa |
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| BobD Guru Joined: 07/12/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 935 |
@isaK If you're inclined to smash fluoro tubes off the ceiling then you will probably smash LED strips. Back to the subject. I use LED strips above my computer desk and I get very good light out of them. I have two 600mm strips mounted side by side on a strip of 32 x 3 mm aluminium. These strips are self adhesive. I have had this for a long time so I don't know what the K value is although it is more a warm white than a cool white. My guess is 3000 to 4000K. The LEDs are about 30 mm apart which gives me about half of the number of LEDs / metre than you have. My LEDs are mounted about 570 mm above my desk. Not very far. I suspect that at a height of 2400 mm or more you would need a lot of strips to do the job. After being on for a long time they get noticeably warm (nowhere near hot) and so does the aluminium mounting strip. My thoughts are that you may need the AL strip to keep them cool. LEDs that get hot die an early death. I just checked. The ambient is about 27 at the moment. It has been a warm night here in Melbourne. My guess is the strips are running at about 40C. I have no easy way of measuring the temp. For house lighting (I am on the grid) I use a mixture of these. http://www.beaconlighting.com.au/ge-10w-led-bright-stik-es-globe-in-cool-white.html http://www.beaconlighting.com.au/ge-10w-led-bright-stik-es-globe-in-warm-white.html and they work very well. However, in the kitchen, the dining area, and the family room, I am using two of these globes in each. In all of the other rooms I have one globe. In a large room you need two of these if you want to read. Those globes are ES but they also come in BC types. I've had these globes for at least a year (maybe two) and they seem reliable. No failures. I doubt that the strips would do the job for you but you should get one and see how it goes. I find the strips great on my desk but I can't actually see them. They are hidden from normal direct sight. I have to lean forward and look up to see them and they are a bit intense. You may need a diffuser. I managed to take a photo. The distance to the camera is about 450mm and it's only part of the strip.  |
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| isaK Newbie Joined: 19/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
Thanks for the input BobD. I agree that the LEDs can break as well. Replacing them should be cheaper though. Either that, or I put the same LED drop lights I have in the lounge room, into the workshop, as they are flush with the ceiling. |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
Things are certainly changing. tried a philips LED bulb in a mechanics shed a few months ago. looking at the quality of the light compared to the next bay with top of the range bare fluro's we think it is doing a better job. its an 18w cool daylight LED rated 2000 lumens (plain ol B22 bayonet fitting). the combo of 6500K temperature and frosted cover makes a difference. we are still losing some light on the roof so for the next try we will dig up some conical light shades and try pairs of 12 watters perhaps.   the 5050 LED's in the led strip are way better than the other versions for light output. I have tried to get hold of some luminaire's with parabolic louvre's to try for workstation lighting, apparently they are supposed to cut out the glare, unfortunately the ones i looked a cut a major hole in my hip pocket as well so they stayed on the suppliers shelf. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| isaK Newbie Joined: 19/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
I love your signature yahoo2! LoL! Great update, thank you! I am however a bit confused as to what you meant by "conical light shades", when the first image you shared in your post looks like, for all intents and purposes, a conical light shade. Or was that the one you are saying you wish to get? I understood it as, that you already used them in the mechanic's shed  So, the specs I posted above for the LED strips would/should do fine then? I would not be able to use the parabolic louvres as the "celing" is comprised of iron sheets sitting on rafters... which in turn are supported by joists. So the LED strips would be attached to the base of these joists. Also, I am wondering if the strips would need some sort of diffuser or not, to soften the sharp shadows that were mentioned in the earlier posts here? I just noticed the LED lighting in my loungeroom do casts shadows, where there is no other lighting source to negate them. Perhaps no diffusers would be needed in the workshop, as the outermost joists are against the roller door on the one side, and the wall on the other end. So, unless I was smack bang against the wall, doing God knows what, I may only then have problems with lighting. Even then, I suppose I could fix an LED strip or two against the far end wall to counter the effects of any shadows I may cast. What say ye? Yay, or nay? |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
The way to overcome the shadow problem is to fit multiple smaller light sources displaced around where you will be working, rather than having one high powered central light source. Another thing you can do is fit some of that acrylic sheet that is made up of a vast number of small clear pyramids on one side, over each LED light. It will help protect from damage,and produces a more diffused light that softens the edges of the multiple shadows you will still otherwise get. Cheers, Tony. |
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| isaK Newbie Joined: 19/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4 |
Thanks for the reply Tony. And here I am feeling all smart, thinking I was being clear when I drew up the birdseye view of the garage with the legend So, in light of your comment, I reckon my plan should work to a tittle! |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
I originally had a dual fluro fitting recessed into the fairly low ceiling of a sun room. I ripped out the fluro tubes and fitted three ordinary bayonet LED light bulbs. It became 3 x 18 LED watts versus 2 x 36 fluro watts. It worked very well, the light output noticeably increased even further after I also fitted three mirror tiles. Just another "what if" idea that worked better than expected.  As you can see, I cut six slots with a small angle grinder, and used bulldog clips to hold the mirrors in position. Highly recommended... I can also fit either one, two, or three bulbs as desired. Cheers, Tony. |
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| bitdog Newbie Joined: 13/11/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 15 |
A friend of mine went with the small diameter fluros and a T10 or T8 transformer for power saving. I went with screw in spiral fluros 13 watt or so, in stick out of the ceiling ceramic sockets. (Not pretty but good coverage & low watts.) Then a second brighter light circuit on a switch also. Your LEDs might work for over the bench, one on each side of where you work, above and slightly behind you so you have no shadows on the work bench items. They don't attract bugs, if there are no bugs. So I made 4 bug buckets, and spread them around the drive way. It's a black 5 gallon bucket with a copper pipe in it. Bend 3/8" copper pipe 90 degrees, 2" out on one end, 4" out on the other. Drill a hole in the bucket down 4" that is smaller than 3/8" (5/16") and use an awl (pointed spreader rod) from the inside to make the hole smooth and larger with out removing any plastic, and then you can push the 2" end in the hole with the 4" end down in the water with a few drops of motor on top per week. The bugs land to drink and lay black eggs/larvae and stick/die on the oil slick. One bucket will kill 90 little biters in an evening, & 4 bucket will free the neighborhood of noseeums in a couple of weeks. It gets a moth or two also. Dogs will drink out of it, and it's dangerous for small children, so put it higher on something and bit away from a corner or under a light where bugs hang out at twilight. Ye old bug buckets have worked for me for 10 years now very well. Bitdog |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Are there any pictures of the bug buckets on the net? Maybe you have some pictures available? George |
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| bitdog Newbie Joined: 13/11/2016 Location: United StatesPosts: 15 |
Hello, Georgen. No, I don't have pictures, or a camera that works now. But it is just a standard 5 gallon plastic bucket. Can be dirty, have oil in it, etc, but leak proof and a darker color is all. The tube bent down below the water surface on the inside is so when it rains the bucket doesn't overflow the oil out the top. The distance down from the top to the 3/8" copper tube overflow is enough that rain doesn't splash the oil out. Buckets get more Alaska mosquitos if it is placed properly. Bugs need out of the wind areas to hang out in since it's too much work to fight the wind. So the lea wind side of a building works. Bugs stay away from things that spiders can build a web on, so buckets away from that stuff in an open area works better. Bugs like to circle mate in the (evening) lea wind corner of a building so the slight wind vortex gives them a spiral column, a bucket below that is how I got 90 in an evening with one bucket. It's great for BBQ or work areas. Workers use to put water and oil in their hard hats when being eaten alive, but it takes a week or two to wipe out the bugs in an area, so 24-7 bug buckets work. If/when it works, show your friends, and get this spreading. In the tropics, the little biters cause a lot of serious disease, bug buckets might be the cure ? I've noticed that in a bigger pond the water skimmers kill the bugs larvae, so the little biters choose water areas that aren't large enough to support skimmers. I could be wrong about that, but that's what I've seen so far. You can experiment with any water holding container and put a few drops of oil to make an oil slick, and if it works in your area, do the bug bucket thing. Bitdog |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
We just put up the bare bulb to try it, but it still spills some light upwards onto the grey galvanised iron, its a lot better than an old incandescent bulb. Unfortunately there is no "pop down to the shops" option where I live, making stuff happen usually involves ordering gear and waiting 3 weeks for freight or improvising with what we have. I am quite busy at the moment and this is a very low priority on my list of jobs, so it will have to wait. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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