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Forum Index : Other Stuff : GS Heat Pump
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Greenbelt Guru  Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
My ongoing project; A Ground source heat pump. I'm getting back to the details of this procrastinated job that began in 2009, have had to attend to other things on the list of life and have ignored the important things. Well things are changing, I have acquired a few Items that will get the job done and just waiting for the rain to slow down to a walk so I won't Drown out there. A few pictures for an introduction to what has and what has not been accomplished and the next item to add. This all began when I built my house, (1728 SQ. FT., 160 Sq.Meters) I've been working on this house about 6 1/2 years. from clearing the land and removing the stumps with an old Backhoe I bought for $3500 . Starting with the floor beams to the (shingles asphalt)on the Roof, , all the electrical wiring and plumbing, Installed my well pump after the digger finished. built the cabinets for the kitchen and master Bath. laid the tile in the bath's and Kitchen. Built three Sheds to hold all the tools and stuff that accumulated over time But still can not find room for anything. I seem to have the ability to do most anything but I'm Da$#%@ awful slow at it. About 3 years ago something happened to the engine oil pump on the old Hoe and the engine fried, it was a 1964 Case, So rather than spend $4200 for a engine I looked around on CraigsList and found another Hoe 10 years newer for $4000, it had a leaking Radiator and a miss fire on one cylinder turned out to be a broken valve, with that fixed and a few Hydraulic hoses and cylinder seals I now have a Decent Machine. I could not have done this without it. Machine work is $150 dollars an hour or if rented it will cost over $400 a (8 hour day) on the meter, It paid for itself on the tenth day of use. The First picture is my house from the pretty side, 
Pic. # 2-0 is the opposite side of the house, The last ditch to be filled in, The Hoe is parked where the pipe will make a right turn and go up hill to the house. The Water in the ditch was 60 CM. deep (2 feet), I joined the pipes temporarily to keep the mud out. In this pic. the pipes are 30 feet short of reaching the end of the ditch. BTW, My House sits on a solid rock, I had to rent a backhoe with a hydraulic hammer to carve a rut for the footing concrete. 
Pic. # 3-0 is taken from the end of the run, down the up hill ditch, this is where the pipes terminate until I connect the Tank for the water/antifreeze solution. 
Pic. # 4-0 End of pipes. 
Pic. # 5-0 The area after covering the Ditches. 
Pic. # 6-0 The grass has come back over the buried pipe area. 
Pic. # 7-0 This is the general layout of the pvc. marked in red 
Pic. # 8-0 As the pipes look now, 
Continued on the next post. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Hi Greenbelt This is something I am very interested in. I had planned on making a heat dump at my new place, to help with cooling. Poly pipe is cheap, its just the cost of making the hole really. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
The GSHP, The Pic. GS#1 is the layout plan for the Ground source heat pump. 
Gs-2 and GS-3, a Carrier brand Heat pump outside unit rated at 2 ton (24000 btu.per hour. I found this on (craigslist,)< Google, for $40.oo The compressor is OK and the Fan works, no signs of damage. The person that sold it to me said it had been sitting in the garage for over two years. She did not know where the inside coil was. Now I will need a Condenser to make this system complete. It is much to nice to strip down for parts so I will keep it as is, and do a standard air to air Installation. 
Pic# GS-4, shows the Condenser side of an old AC. that I have moved around for over ten years, the Compressor is stuffed But I can use this condenser for the "Carrier as they are both rated at Two Tons. 
pic. GS-5, the Evaporator has suffered fin damage possibly more and I do not want to try and use it. 
Pic New shed, is wired with 240 volt, 40 amp. 1 phase to power my welder and a back feed port for the Emergency generator, 5500 watt Chinese, Harbor freight model "Chicago", 13HP. petro engine with battery start. It has 10 hrs. on it at over 4000 watts draw, "So far So Good" only problem is hard to start. The choke is not effective, (Smog Laws) A small shot of ether cures that. 
Pic. cluttered Shed, is a peek into a place no longer accessible. I built this last year to house all my woodworking-House building tools that occupied the Master Bedroom for five years. it is 12 X 16 Feet(3-1/2 X 4.9 meters), It has an attic which is also full. 
OK, The Plan", I have 6 ditches containing 2 pipes each for a total of 648 lineal feet. (195.5 Meters.) The pipe Diameter is 3/4" pvc.(1.9-CM.). All pipes are connected in series for one long pipe. When filled with circulating fluid (Water and Alcohol) will contain 3430 Cubic inches /231 = 14.85 US Gallons,(56 Liters). The pipes are burried in a winter time wet area. Sometimes after hard rains there is a couple inches of standing water here. the area does perk well so I have constant change of water around my Loop Pipes which will keep the area from freezing when the loop takes heat away. This will enhance the efficiency of my shorter than standard Loop. Water is used as the International Standard Base to measure specific heat, its Value is (1) This is (1 BTU, (British Thermal Unit), All you need to know is, one BTU will change the temperature of one pound of water, 1 degree F. either cooled or warmed. There may be one or two things on this earth that have a specific heat greater than one but I don't know of them. This does have a limit, 32 deg(0)Ice, or 212(100) Boiling, At either Temp. it requires less heat to change its temperature 1 deg. What I'm getting to is, water can adsorb more heat at reasonable temps than any other medium My pipe will hold 125 pounds of water. My Freon Refrigerant will chill the water/alcohol to 30 deg. F.(-1)C, The Earth will heat the pipe water to 45 deg. F. (Earth temperature here in Seattle is 52 F.) This means each pound of water will pick up 15 btu. while passing through the Ground Loop.(We Hope) I plan to circulate 3 1/2 gallons per minute through the system, It will require 4 minutes for the Water to pass through giving some time to conduct Earth Heat through the plastic pipe. 3 1/2 Gallons weighs 30 pounds, Every minute 30x15 btu comes out the pipe to heat my house. This is 450 btu minute x 60 = 27,000 = 2.25 ton, 1 watt is = to 3.41 btu. were I to heat my house with resistance Heat ( which I do), then 27000/3.41 = 7.9 kilowatts. This system will operate on 15 amps 220 volts including fans and pump = 3.3 Kilowatt. Yesterday I purchased 2 Poly Water Tanks 65 Gallon each and a mag pump< something new to me as I have never played with one but if the description I was given is accurate it should be trouble free for a long time. I bought both the tanks and the pump from a Fella who rebuilds pleasure boats. This was another Craigslist AD, Tanks $50.oo each, Pump also $50.oo, I will bury the Tanks and pour some ready mix cement around them for support before back filling. I will have to cut out a section of the tank to fit the evaporator inside and then make a suitable adapter patch to seal it against dirt and insects.(FUN) Last week I got another AC. "I love Craigslist" 18,000 BTU that works like new for $30.oo. I checked ! OZ has Craigslist. but it must be new there or not popular or regulations on private sales.???. very few adds show, I checked Brisbane, Sidney, Darwin, Canberra. not much there. I'm going to Save the Refrigerant,R-22. if it looks clean and re use it if possible If not then I will order a retrofit HFC. R22 Replacement. R-416A is very close to R-12 in the settings of evaporator pressure and offers a low pressure for condensing temperature. Its a Propane Butane Mix and is cheap. R-22 is now near $60.oo a pound. This is up to date as of now, When I have something more accomplished I will post it for the interested persons. I will include the values of expected performance before, and actual, when this job is completed. I do not intend to do time studies, Hour to hour monitering of ambiemt air temps, Loss of heat from fluid lines, etc. They will be insulated to prevent a great loss. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Greenbelt This a a major contract mate, just as well you have all the equipment otherwise it would cost a fortune. It sounds like it will be a bit costly to run as well, but I suppose compared to a standard off the shelf unit it will save a lot of money. I look at the things for sale on the sites in the USA and get get a bit jealous at times. Just a suggestion on the gas I have used ordinary LPG as in the bottled gas or Auto gas with good results in the past, according to my handbook the btu ratings are nearly the same as F22. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Yes the Cost of installing a Ground source heat pump involves permitting fees, engineering of the total load and the conductance of the local soil and calculating the loop pipe length and ditching. add the inflated price of (in all cases Specialized equipment required for this unique situation). private residence size GSHP are quoted at $18-35,000.oo. The average is $24.000 Much too rich for my Income, I have a couple Hundred invested in the Poly pipe, Fittings, an glue. 3 Days on the hoe + or _ , $150 for the Tanks and pump. $70.oo for the parts to build a 1.8 ton system.I have a friend who has access to a Manifold and gauges to charge and adjust the pressures in the Evaporator and condenser. There are several ways to get the job done, If having to Hire the machine and Operator is the only way forward, I would Suggest to Have your 30 meter coiled Poly rolls, or (what ever sizes they come in) all joined to form your loop. Hire a BIG dozer Not a putt-put. for one day, Dig a wide Deep channel 3 times the width of the dozer blade 2 meters deep, and as long as 35 Meters. Have a couple friends and a case of refreshment to place the coils in the hole while the dozer man takes lunch or has a couple with you while He helps out. after one long day you may have a ground loop installed and covered. Ask for a bid to do the job , try to find an individual who has his own machine Independant of a Construction company. I often do work for the neighbors at a tenth the cost of the going rates some times for nothing. The fuel is to be considered and when the job is a couple of hours or more I charge $35.oo HR. Hoses break and Tires blow occasionally. There will be payments to make on a big machine so you will not likely get off this easy. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
HI Bob, I built a small air to air heat pump 12 years ago from a 12,000 btu AC. I lived in a mobile Home at that time. I experimented with it so much that I fried the Compressor. The Expansion valve was adjusted to nearly closed and the system contained excess Refrigerant, all of it stored in the condenser till it backed up to the compressor. and just like the books tell you ,Solids do not compress. During the four months It operated,(Was Winter) but mild, 5 to 9 Deg.C and rain) it kept up during the day time, cycling from the thermostat. At 5 deg. it would frost up and start loosing efficiency. I worked 2nd shift at the time and when I came home at midnight. wife in bed. pump running but house a little cooler than we like it.Our power bill for the period was a third what it normally waa and this was a cobbled system. I am confident that this will save me hundreds of dollars in one year. Last power bill was $490oo for 63 days. I know our rates are less than almost anywhere in the World at 8.3 Cents kwH.But the state and county and fed Gov. have levied taxes on the bill, Not enough to complain about but there have been notices that renewable energy is going to end our low power rates. Before I finish this project it may be modified to heat the house Water by routing the refrigerant through a heat exchanger or by making a smaller heat pump that could use the G Source Tank water. That is part of the reason to add a hundred gallon reserve tank for the system. The Idea being that when the thermostat does not call for heat the water pump continues to circulate the water for some time (To be Determined Later) this will take the chill off the circulating water so that the system will be optimized for peak efficiency. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Here is an Update to the heat pump A few pic's really to show where I'm Going. 
Just a Note; My lavish use of fittings is due to stock on hand (lots of em,) All for Now. Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Hi All; Another update. I cheaped out on buying a piece of Aluminum channel for the Evaporator Mounts. I found a piece of sheet stock .04" 1,mm and formed my Mounts at 2-3/8"- 60mm wide. this allows maximum depth into the fluid with 3/4"-19mm. clearance on the bottom. 
The purpose of cutting the Tank opening at an angle is to reduce the turbulence when fluid flows within. The fluid return is through the 2 small side ports which will initiate a flow pattern toward the opposite side of the Tank, the pump being on the same side as the ports will pull the current back across. ( or in my imagination ?) 
This is a temporary install to check fit and to find out what i have not made allowances for in my planning. The 13mm Tubing has a oil trap where it connects to the evaporator, (just a carefully formed curve in the Tubing to help the oil return to the Compressor) It has been bent out of shape and I need to replace it. Time to brush up on my Soldering . Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Greenbelt Coming along well the only thing I see as a problem is the friction loss in your piping it is a long way for your little pump to pump the water will be interested to see how that goes. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Hi Bob, Yeah, There could be a problem here, I plan to test the flow rate before commiting to this one. It would be nice if I can use this pump it is rated at 110 Watts draw. I have 124 US gallon plus 13 odd in the pipe. if heat draw requires 3.5 gallon per Minute then I have 137 Gallon / 3-1/2 = 39 minutes with no flow at all. Of course it does not work like that because of the loss of efficiency as the fluid cools. Suppose the system operates for about 1/2 that time, 16 minutes Max. with a room thermostat in series with a timer, if the pump can manage 2.2 GPM. it will pump 35.2 gallon while the system operates, in the 10 minutes of power off it will pump 22 gal. for a total of 57.2 gallons,/ 3-1/2 = 16.34 min. My house is insulated pretty well ,R 23 walls, R 30 floor R 38 Roof with double pane thermo gas filled windows. Once warm, it holds heat a long time and I always have resistance heat as a back up. Time will tell the story, Thanks for the comment, This is how we do it better and any suggestions are welcome, I will of course take credit for it anyway. We better check on Karlj His side of the country is having fire. Regards--- Roe Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Roe I got a 24 volt positive displacement pump off flea bay for $50 45 PSI 5 amps max load 2.5 gall a min. Might be worth a try if yours has difficulty. Sounds like your house is set up really well. we have the opposite problem here with heat in the summer, 3 months of 35+C. winter is good at around 20 deg C six months. I am thinking of fitting an air cycle cooler / heater for next year as this hot weather has taken a toll on me this year, getting a bit to old for to much heat. The weather is going crazy, the heat and humidity and floods, and in the west dry and hotter and fires. Karl should be all-right as he is in suburbia not out in the hills. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Roe With no intention of hijacking your thread, I have a question / proposal. Since it seems easier to make heat when we're cold than to make cold when we're hot, I have for a long time considered burying 6" diameter aluminum pipes in a continuous serpentine arrangement so as to utilize the fact that ground temperature is pretty constant year round. The idea was to both push and pull air through this long metal tunnel in order to extract its heat value, namely that the ground a foot or two down in summer is about the same as ideal air temperature, 72*. Is this a viable idea or just another very long "pipe" dream? . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| grub Senior Member  Joined: 27/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 169 |
Watched an episode of "Grand Design" where the owner/builder put piping into the floor foundations and footings to transfer ground heat throughout the house. He also had solar heating on the roof, and a large diameter pipe that ran the length of his driveway as the air intake for his airconditioner unit. The show then did a return visit to the house in winter and you could see where on the roof his heating pipes ran (no snow covering). It seemed to have worked really well but then again it was all done with the building of the house. |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Hi Mac, How've you been doin. I did a google search to find something on passive home cooling because I know I had seen it before on the Net. I think it is a great Idea, I hit on this from the Google search Gizmo may be interested in something like this. Just rent a Trencher for a couple of days. and yes, the fan may need a little more Umph. Larger pipe sizes are expensive now a days, an alternative may work out to less money by circulating water through the ground pipes and a radiator fan arrangement. ---Roe Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
[Quote=Greenbelt]Hi Mac, How've you been doin? 38 Days and counting. That's the time remaining before my divorce is "final". At that time, I will be moving into my new house. I'll post a Youtube video when the time comes. I intend rebuilding the forced-air heating system, exchanging the firebox for a hydronic coil using domestic hot water, since I have to have a water heater anyway. My thought was, why have both a water heater and a FAU firebox, when one will serve two masters? I may utilize one of my smaller "oil-filled" flat-plate solar applications as well, I dunno. I'll keep everyone posted. My new house is smack in the center of downtown and a "windmill" probably won't be allowed. No worries. I'll still continue building them, but I'll have to test them on the beach instead of above my house. I'm also working on something, which I've be at for several years now, which I hope to complete in the very near future. It will super-cede the need for a windmill or any other type of alternative power generator. It's very complicated and I won't go into it here in any detail except to say it deals heavily with quantum mechanics. I'm currently reading "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking. If you can follow his analogy of "real" and "imaginary" space-time, understanding what I'm working on will be a snap! . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| RossW Guru Joined: 25/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 495 |
Very interested in how you go with this. That was my plan too (GSHP) for this place, as I'm totally off-grid. I went slightly differently - since we were an excavate-build-backfill, I had a substantial area cleared that was going to be covered back over at least 3 metres (10') with dirt, without having to actually dig trenches. I made 8 "slinkies" - each slinky is a full 200 metre roll of 1" HDPE. Here's a sort-of closeup of the construction. 
And here you can see half of the coils. (The other 4 go the other way, away from the camera) 
All the coils are in continuous, uninterrupted runs - no joints to blow apart - and the ends come back inside to two manifolds. They're "reverse-balanced" so flow should be uniform across all coils. There's 1600m (1 mile) of burried 1" pipe... 
The house has 3,300m of pipe burried in the concrete slab that is the floor, and two 2000 litre hot-water tanks that are for cooling the generator and providing domestic hot water and hydronics water to heat the slab. All I'm missing is the heat-pump to move heat from the GSHP loops into the tanks. One day I'll have the spare money to do it! Also, not shown, I ran a series of temperature sensors (16) along some of the slinkies so I can do temperature profiles to optomise the flow-rate, one day. |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Ross That is a major contract, have you monitored the soil temp in the mean time to get an idea of available geo energy? Bob Foolin Around |
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| RossW Guru Joined: 25/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 495 |
The loops themselves were a reasonably modest investment - and probably 5% of the cost of doing it at the time than trying to do it 5 years after the event! Measuring the ground temp is one of those things I've been meaning to do "forever" - but never got around to doing more than once or twice a year. I considered it more or less "irrelevant" as whatever temperature the ground is, it's bound to be more efficient than an air-sourced system. (We rarely get below about -7 deg C air temp here, and 3m down I'd be surprised if the ground gets below about 16C, based on the temperature of other walls burried 3 to 5m down) |
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| VK4AYQ Guru Joined: 02/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2539 |
Hi Ross I have been looking into a passive system my self and have bored test holes to rock unfortunately thats only 1 to 1.2 meters down, its a huge slab of sandstone. Winter temp minimum over the three holes is 22 deg C. and summer it is 25 - 26 Deg C. unfortunately the recent flooding has ruined my temp senders, so I cant check this year which has been hotter. I drilled into the rock another 500 mm, with the longest drill I had and only one sensor, the temperature at that level stayed at 23 deg C. all year. At this level it would be a good proposition but the cost of around $3000.00 brought me to a stop. Another option is to use the bore water 50 meter deep, 22Deg C. cheaper but means running a 1/2 HP submersible approx 700 watts. For this reason I am very interested to see how yours go, and the cost effectiveness of operation. All the best Bob Foolin Around |
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| Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
RossW---Impressive- ! I don't know what size your finished house will be but for sure it doesn't matter, you have enough system installed for a School House. great looking work also. BTW your building site is not to shabby either. (Thinking out loud) With 5250 ft. of pipe you have between 6.5 to 7.5 tons of heat exchanger here. That's 72,600-84,600- BTU. 21.3 - 24.8 kilowatts Equivalent. I'm Gona be Sick! Thank you for sharing this. Keep us up to date. Regards, Roe Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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