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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Steam engines that really work..
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| anteror Senior Member  Joined: 06/10/2009 Location: FinlandPosts: 189 |
In Finland we have searched steam engine that really.. is real an really works, to made power and energy. THIS is real; http://www.tinytechindia.com/steamengine.htm Electric power plants, with prices; http://www.tinytechindia.com/steampowerplan.htm You can make your own independent energy from anything that burns and also make warming power.. etc V K Desai will answer to all your questions and he is an expert in low tech machines. Antero Rantanen Finland |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
You know I find this interesting. One of the attractions of steam is you can use a WIDE range of fuels, including timber, plant waste and bio-oils. Stirling engines are the same, will run on anything that burns. I remember reading years ago about a farmer who built a steam powered sugar cane harvester. It used the trash from the cane ( leaves ) in the firebox, so effectively didn't need any outside fuel. Apparently it was slow, and diesel fuel is cheap, so never took off. With rising fuel prices, I expect we will start to see some innovation. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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Downwind Guru  Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
What is the by product of burning all that crap fuel for energy to make steam, we may as well burn coal and make power as its a cleaner fuel. I have no problem with steam, its the fuel that is used to make steam where the problem is. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
What was the crap fuel I mentioned? Burning fuels like plant waste, timber, etc, is a closed carbon cycle, the carbon was captured in the last few decades. Bio-fuels is one of the cleanest fuels is, especially if its grown in the paddock and used to harvest the paddock. Its basically solar power. I'm not talking about burning waste like plastics, etc. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
Its worth noting also that you don't necessarily need to burn fuel to make steam... using Parabolic troughs to collect sunlight to produce steam perhaps? Mind you i've no idea how to work out how big a collector you'd need to produce enough steam to run a 2hp engine on. I know a couple of people here have played with steam engines before - anybody know? |
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Greenbelt Guru Joined: 11/01/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 566 |
Powered Nut; Hi, Reflector size would need to be 3 square meters for 2-HP. About 1.8 KW after losses. Here is a page that has some formula on sizing for your needs.also some tips on how to fabricate a collector Cheer-------- Roe Time has proven that I am blind to the Obvious, some of the above may be True? |
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| powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
thanks Greenbelt - thats fantastic info, much obliged. I've been thinking building a solar parabolic dish powered stirling would be a challenging project for a while, and that info will be very helpful. |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Glenn i was not referring to your comment in general, but was merely commenting that many view free energy can be obtained from any crap they can burn. I see this as a negative with more harmful emissions produced than the small saving on energy produced. We need the trees to capture present carbon productions and not cut down the trees and burn them to produce more carbon, like wise for other waste bio matter, burning it causes more carbon to be released and the problem gets bigger. The lower the quality of bio matter used the lower the energy produced, which means 2 things, more bio matter required to be burn and far greater emissions produced as a result. The other impact is with removing bio matter, as our soils need bio matter to break down and feed nutrients back into the soil, its also a closed loop function, and we can not keep removing nutrients from the soil and not return some organic matter back into the soil, the world is running out of chemical fertilizers quickly and we need to start to recycle organic matter to replace the soil nutrients. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Yeah that's true. You need to burn about twice as much wood as coal to get the same energy, but overall, wood, even in the higher quantity needed, is a much cleaner fuel than coal. So while growing trees to use as fuel is very clean since its almost closed loop, there is still the problem of having enough trees, and therefore space, to supply the needs. Which is exactly why coal become so popular and well established back in the 1800's, they were running out of trees! I think for a small scale power plant for a off grid set up, you could grow enough "fuel" if you have a few acres. But these days I think steam would be more suited as a backup system, instead of a fossil fuelled generator. We now have solar, wind and battery technology to supply most of our needs, but on those days where its overcast and the winds not blowing ( which seams to be every 10 days or so for me ) a steam powered generator would be handy. It could heat up your water and put a charge back into the battery bank for the sake of a few kg of timber. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Fair enough Glenn on wanting free energy, but it still comes at a cost. You add up the fuel for the chainsaw to cut up the lumber and the fuel to cart trailer loads of wood home, and the time and effort to split the wood up to suit your fire box. It all costs $$$ before you even start to produce power from the basic resources you collected. If you have all day and nothing better to do than collect wood and feed a fire to produce steam then it might be practical. (even then might is a big word) Where you would have spent $$ in fuel to do the collection it might have been much more cost effective to just put the fuel into the petrol generator to start with, because i dont think you have a actual concept on the quantity of wood (or other bio matter) you will require to run a steam generator for the time period you require. It all sound a great idea until you actually have to supply the mass fuel requirements that will be needed, and you will soon see a jerry can of fuel was not so costly and far easier to rely on for a emergency power source. Thats just my take on the subject after many years of contemplating the idea of free energy from fossil fuels, and it ain't free when you add up the costs. Its a pipe dream to grow our own fuel in trees and be self sustainable in energy, we are just raping the efforts of those who came before us and planted the trees, and if we expect to grow our own trees for fuel within our lifetime is just pure wishful thinking. Its great to have big ideas but reality can bite hard if you thinking of placing the big idea into practice without viewing all angles of the big idea. In my opinion this is a lost cause unless one takes the approach of using solar, but that dont fix the problem of low solar days, otherwise PV cells would do a better job than a solar collector and a steam generator. Perhaps i am wrorg but my view or "renewable" energy requires a resource that is renewable within our lifetime, and not relient on those who came before us or those who follow in our foot steps for the future. It is a here and now thing renewable energy, and not relient on what nature created in the past or our best intentions of what we intend to create in the future. And around the circle we go again....................... Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
It depends on the situation Pete In my case, if its been overcast for more than a day, I have a 6kw petrol generator I run for 30 minutes to heat up enough water for a quick shower and washing the dishes. The solar/battery bank is OK, so long as I don't want to use any big loads, where by I would need to fire up the generator again to give the battery bank a boost. A steam powered generator, or a Stirling cycle engine, would be perfect for me. It can top up the batteries, while heating up my water tank, get rid of some paper waste, and make a lot less noise in the process. Yes it would need wood, but not as much as many people seam to think. A well designed fire box can be very efficient compare to the throwing a log on the fire approach. I worked on a project with a fella called James Joyce in Mackay, who went on to build bio-char burners and slow burning stoves. A shovel load of wood chips in a slow burner would provide many times the energy of a log on a old fashioned fire box. Unfortunately many people think of steam as underpowered, slow, dirty. But it doesn't need to be so. I remember talking to my brother once and he said steam engines were retired because they were slow. He was totally surprised when I told him the old steam trains would regularly do 160kmh in the UK, had to show him a video of a restored Mullard at speed to convince him. Most power stations today use the steam cycle for power generation, its just the power source that's different. Steam isn't for everyone, but it sure would be a better option for some of us, and shouldn't be written off. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| powerednut Senior Member Joined: 09/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 221 |
I've got a couple of acres, which we intend to build an off-grid home on and we've planted a bunch of trees on the property. We've planted some species that are good for firewood which we should be able to start coppicing in about 5 more years. We plan on using some of that wood for firewood - heating our place in winter, and like Gizmo we want to use a high efficiency wood heater. Some relatives overseas have one the same as we intend to use and the output compared to a regular slow combustion stove is astounding. In the pipe dream category I'd also like to build a Stirling engine into the fireplace as well, to make further use of some of the heat. If I can get even 100W out of it when the fire is in use (i.e when its dark and cold), it'll make a nice supplement to the planned wind and solar setup for the planned house. It'll also help to postpone that moment when we need to start the generator. *edit* in the renewable (and crap) fuels line: I guess you could use methane to power a boiler (or Stirling engine too), but I suspect you'd require a lot of source material. I seem to remember reading somewhere that you'd get about 400L of gas from 1kg of umm.. raw material, which was Roughly enough to run a gas light for 3-4 hours or so I think. |
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