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Forum Index : Other Stuff : Making PLANTE batteries. 550ah 2v cell.
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Clockmanfr Guru  Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Charge rates are slightly wrong in my above posts, sorry. For our PLANTE battery designated at 1.5volts we need to ......... CHARGING the PLANTE battery. Okay so we need to form the correct oxides to form on the correct plates. So to form correctly for the best attributes for the oxide, we charge at 20% to 23% over the designated, designated voltage for each of our cells is 1.5v volt cell. And at 10% to 13% of the amperage of the calculated rated Amp hour capacity of that cell. So for our battery we will charge at 2.43volts and at 57amps. Remember change the polarity for each of the 30 plus charges as you form the plates. Discharge at 10% of the cell capacity, so for our 2.22volt 550ah PLANTE battery thats, 2.442volts and 55amps. Edited 2022-01-10 19:55 by Clockmanfr Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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RFburns Regular Member  Joined: 21/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 43 |
In case you haven't seen this Plante this thread discus's the construction of plante batteries in detail. I have looked at making these myself but there are some deficiencies that are not discussed often .These batteries have poor performance -voltage falls rapidly under load as there is not a great deal of active mass and efforts to increase this can lead to the plate shedding active material ;also buckling and micro cracking leading to plate failure. Edited 2022-01-27 10:26 by RFburns Strong like horse smart like tractor! |
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| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Thanks RF for that Link, seen a fair few links over the years. Here we are rolling the groves into the surface of the plates and yet leaving a border for support. We will turn that first 0.70mm of the plates into the correct oxides after 30 charge and discharges. But these voltages and amperages on charge and discharge must be spot on to form a good retaining oxide, and to not allow the plates to buckle. Also the matrix formed with the roller grooves will also hold the oxide in position. I am using porous polythene non woven geotextile 400gms thick socks on each plate, and they will be packed tight into the case. I cant make the case until all lead plates are rolled due to the deformation of the lead by rolling those fine grooves into the surface of the lead. There are lots of variables at play here, in Engineering and Chemistry, hopefully i will find a happy solution so that ordinary folk if they follow instructions can make a decent PLANTE battery. I will give this project a go and see what happens, plus i will publish the data i have amassed. Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| RFburns Regular Member Joined: 21/07/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 43 |
Clockmanfr please do not let my post in any way discourage you in your endeavor with Plante. The link in the first post has various other posts in the same forum surrounding plate forming (some automated using micro controllers that maybe of intrest) There is certainly a lot of information on Plante and endless patent material that can be drawn on to assist you - some not so easy to find Once training on the cell is completed I would recommend regular use of a desulphator in use ,as low antimony lead acid batteries for deep cycle with a low active mass is not an ideal condition The only company i have seen produce these in recent times Plante is no longer in business (there was a lot of discussion as to why in various forums ,I will not go into it here ;Google my reveal something) I look forward to following your journey . RF Strong like horse smart like tractor! |
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Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1343 |
Clockman I've now done 3 polarity changes and deiced to time it took that reduction motor to get the voltage down to 0.5 volts. 5.5 hours mate ok unloaded this is only a 40-60 mA draw @ 2 volts but this single cell is getting there. The other day noticed the battery was on 2.6 volts so this weekend time for another discharge and reverse polarity. Now see if you get some of that 1/4" lead rope to wrap around each cell and this weekend i'll take a pic and upload it to my thread so you can have a look at it. Cheers Bryan |
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| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Hi RF, No problems. I think all active and actual realistic criticism is good on any project. 'Warpspeed' on 'Bryan1' topic has posted a simple circuit, but not really had time to take it any further. It all comes down to cost effectiveness in the end. There is little point on me spending 350 euros on materials for each 550ah 2v battery if the hassle and the construction is not easy, and especially if the charge and discharge is complicated. And if the battery has a good life span and gives good ah against a commercially manufactured battery of the same output charteristics. I have all the manufacturing equipment, the skills and a little brain that needs stimulus, and if nothing else i can report back to all if this PLANTE battery is worth pursuing. Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Nice one 'Bryan1' Good to see you gently experimenting with that single cell. Be careful if you remove the plates that you don't wash them to hard and remove that precious oxide coating. Yea, i am following your topic thread. Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| Bryan1 Guru Joined: 22/02/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1343 |
G'Day Clockman, Well that 2 volt cell I have has builtup a huge sticky residue on both cells and the separator and this weekend i did a load test with that small motor where the current is 50-80 milliamps and what surprised me that motor was still going the next day. Now on another topic mate could I buy that book you have on making the Oztules inverters as I do need to convince my wife building is better than buying where a good read can go a long way. Cheers Bryan |
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| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Hi Bryan1, Nice to here about your test battery. I have not had time to get back to the PLANTE battery project, but hopefully in the next few weeks, testing will resume. Here is link to a site that has my RE stuff and the OzInverter. I just put stuff on it that helps others with actual real information and I keep well away from Armchair Wafflers Folk. The OzInverter page..... http://www.bryanhorology.com/ozinverter.phphttp://www.bryanhorology.com/ozinverter.php As you can see i can supply all 3 PCB's for the project if you want. Remember its the complete project for a 48vDC system. You will need to stick to the Books information to achieve what you want. Make sure your soldering skills are good and the cable sizes are followed. One bad connection and things go downhill fast. If the project seems to daunting there are Chinese boards that come complete with a EGS002 board with the PWM 8010, you can find links on this forum somewhere and folks have had good results. ...... A word of caution with the Chinese’s boards and the 002 sub board, At about 3KW of power using a toroid build no problems but after 3KW the effecient and magnetically tight toroid can cause issues unless the OPAmp on the EGS002 board is disabled. I still recommend the Overtemp pin start/stop method on a first build, and therfore the Pin 6 needs to always see the 5v rail. Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Okay chaps, moving to production stage. There has been lots of design changes to the lead plate arrangement and testing the holding concepts, but after many revisions we are ready. Getting at a good price 69kgs of 6m long by 440 wide pure lead, thats 24 battery lead sheets. Each 2v battery will have 13 sheets of the identical size and fastening and connecting arrangements. Each sheet is 535mm x 240mm x 2.24mm thick, costs about US$7. In the photo below there is a plywood template for the lead sheets. On top of the ply template is the stainless steel cutting frame for the cutting of the lead sheet to exact size each time, and for a 48v battery pack i need 312 off lead sheets. Cutting the lead is 3 passes with a sharp thin Stanley 1992 blade, works well. A A2 cutting self healing Matt underneath. Still keeping the design simple but robust. I have the PVC for the case but these can only be manufactured to exact size once the true thickness of the plates will be found when all together, as each plate gets a polythene thick sock and a MDPE 10mm square Matt between each plate and cell. This matt has thicker joints as they cross so excellent for allowing the acid to flow around the cells. The MDPE garden fence comes in various mesh sizes but 10mm seems a good compromise at this stage as its stiff so will keep the plates separated yet but will allow very slight movement due to heat, discharge and charge condition and, This matt has thicker joints as they cross so excellent for allowing the acid to flow around the matt and the cells. Should start production next week.   Edited 2022-08-31 22:16 by Clockmanfr Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 458 |
Looks great, it is a big project. It is great to read how you are doing it and will be good to see how it all works out. Pete |
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| johnmc Senior Member  Joined: 21/01/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 282 |
Thanks for the battery update,pleased to see that you still working on the project. cheers john johnmc |
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| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Producing the lead plates, 525mm x 220mm x 3mm thick. 98% pure lead roll. Just a few hundred more to cut out. Then each will be ribbed rolled. Then each plate gets its polythene sock.   Edited 2022-09-07 17:25 by Clockmanfr Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| zeitfest Guru Joined: 31/07/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 482 |
The formation by repeated charge/reversals makes me wonder about using it for old sulphated cells. AFAIK a sulphated cell can't be charged - the lead sulphate will not reduce to lead even if the positive electrode still works to some extent. Forced "charging" only bubbles hydrogen off the negative electrode and it stays sulphate. I wonder if a dead cell can be reverse-charged and then recharged ? Any old positive electrode material (oxide) would be reduced to lead, and hopefully the old sulphated negative electrode would form some conductive oxide. Then the following normal charge would reduce the oxide to lead and hopefully revive the negative electrode a bit. It would take a substantial charger. and I doubt if the cell gets anywhere near original, but it would be an interesting experiment. |
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| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
zeitfest, In most commercially manufactured batteries, the correct Oxide is already formed as a paste and is pressured into the lead grid matrix that holds the plate together. Once this oxide starts to age and be used the battery will start to lose the oxide and disintegrate and drop out of the lead grid matrix of the plate. When this happens, the voltage stays okay but the AH starts to reduce. Until....... Big business selling commercial manufactured batteries, why make a battery last.???? Some commercial GOOD manufacturers do make a stiffer paste and a better holding grid matrix so their batteries do get a reasonable life span. ROLLS, BATER OPZ's etc. But even those guys are having the actual cells manufactured in China, and sadly as you all know QC is a big issue. So as i said at the beginning of this topic/post, hence me doing what I am doing. Edited 2022-09-09 17:14 by Clockmanfr Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| Alston Regular Member Joined: 04/04/2021 Location: AustraliaPosts: 63 |
Looking great Clockman, very interested in how this progresses! |
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| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Feb 2023. How to make your own, 440amp-550amp hour, PLANTE lead acid batteries. The more you use a PLANTE battery the better it gets, and it lasts many decades. The project is still progressing. Just a few photos and updates on the Lead sheet roller JIG set up. We need consistant rolled plates and 11 sides need rolling per 2v battery. We have 14 lead plates in each battery the photos show the Lead plate surface roller making the 0.5mm depth grid pattern into each surface and on both sides. I am trying to keep this process simple and can be done with simple tools by anyone, anywhere on this Planet. Remember we want the surface of the lead to turn to lead oxide so the amperage can be good from the word go, rather than awaiting many years for the battery cell to get to 440amp to 550amp hour. Also, as you can see with this simple modern method, we increase the surface-active area considerably by using the roller method.     Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
The vertical rolling. And the finished side.   Whoops!, its 12 sides for each battery that need rolling, and not 11. ie, the two end plates that are in the battery do not need rolling as they are not interacting to form a cell. Edited 2023-02-16 19:46 by Clockmanfr Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
March 2024. Case design now confirmed. Insulators and plate seperators now confirmed. Battery terminals and plate connections now confirmed. ..... Please find this simple reply regards what’s going on in a 2v cell at the active lead DIOXIDE level for the IFLA and PLante cells. This will form, after re-editing etc, part of my ‘How to Make a modern Plante 2v 450ah lead acid battery’ book. I always try to write and explain and show with picks what’s practically going on. I have concerns that some groups are guessing and starting to spout rubbish about the humble 2v lead acid cell, so hopefully my below comments will straighten a few folks out. ........... Each 2v volt cell has a charge and discharge rate and this depends on several factors. 1. The structure of the matrix grid plates and the ratio between the supporting lead that is a basic PLANTE forming, and the composition of the LEAD DIOXIDE that is already made and pasted into the lead matrix that gives a higher Amp Hour holding capacity from the word go. 2. It is very important to recharge and reform the lead oxide at a suitable rate. Eg, like electroplating, to quick and the plating does not form and adhere well. The same with lead dioxide, make it efficient and give good ah output, then its short lived. Make the dioxide paste longer lasting but less preforming ah output, and more stable, then welcome to the IFLA as the lead plate matrix is very, very thick and holds the Oxide paste firmly. BUT excessive constant charge on a individual 2v cell and the lead oxide that is pasted into the grid matrix will be disrupted, especially where it rests in the lead matrix grid, and then the precious lead oxide paste will shed and drop out. 3. The lead matrix grid plates hold the lead dioxide tight, but the lead dioxide is fragile. The lead holding grid it self will also form the correct dioxide over many (over 40) charge recharges, and slowly integrate with the dioxide pastes. BUT CONSTANTLY GETTING THE CHARGE RATE WRONG AND THE PŔECIOUS LEAD DIOXIDE PASTE WILL START SHEDDING as the bond will be broken. IN CONCLUSION. Some of you are aware of my R&D experiments and builds on a new modern form of the old pure lead PLANTE lead acid 2v 450ah battery. Forming the pure lead sheet surface into a active lead dioxide mush, but making this surface dioxide mush stable and yet giving good AH output rates, is mind boggling, as the variables that require experimentation and calculation are vast. Oh yea, and these 13 plate 2v PLANTE cells of mine are all designed around a DIY context and constructed with simple tools. So bear with me guys as i examine and publish a useful definitive practical guide to the humble 2v lead acid cell. Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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