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Forum Index : Solar : Salt Water Battery
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| MasterCATZ Regular Member  Joined: 25/03/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 52 |
has anyone tried making off-grid sized salt water battery ? http://aquionenergy.com https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=ininventor:%22Jay+Whitacre%22&gws_rd=ssl they seem easy to make zinc and copper might be cheaper than DIY ni-fe batteries how ever what i am really looking for would be short-term storage , we only need to store the energy for a few days in a solar system , there must be something cost-effective at doing this ie) http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/132529-alfa-battery-lasts-14-days-runs-on-normal-water-and-is-out-later-this-year |
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Madness Guru  Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Secondhand golf cart batteries only cost me scrap value. The are not perfect but work quite well. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| MasterCATZ Regular Member Joined: 25/03/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 52 |
I have my own Nickel Iron (NiFe) pack I built from old fish tanks and nickel foam which runs my aquariums backup power and I use telco battery's that I paid $10 / 100 ah / 2V cell for 20kw backup power for aquaponic system that just runs emergency air but wanting to build a 70+ kw bank for backup power so I can flow more water so looking for options, that are more permanent than throwing away batteries |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
I did look into these at one time. The only problem I found was a relatively low current capability compared to lead acid. A salt water battery bank of the same Ah capacity as my lead acid batteries could only supply 20 amps peak! My Lead Acids can supply 10 times that. Talking Amps, not Amp Hours, very different. So for off grid domestic use where you may need to draw 100 plus amps for a short duration, the salt water batteries are not suitable. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| MasterCATZ Regular Member Joined: 25/03/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 52 |
thanks for info on the current limitations of the salt batteries I only need 2kw / hr so I would assume math would be 48v @ 20 amps = 960 watts mmm might need to go 120v ... or maybe just go straight for 220v and do direct DC - AC man that's a lot of containers to try and tinker with :P guess I could use a heap of cups and try 220v test run ay other issues you guys might know of for salt batteries ? |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Be very careful with DC over 48V it is more dangerous than AC. Salt Water batteries are being used off grid, due to the low current for the size you need really big batteries. Therefore they are not suitable for anything other than stationary applications. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| MasterCATZ Regular Member Joined: 25/03/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 52 |
Magnesium + graphite seem to be the winner have some in thin foam form ordered will see how the cells go to keep the salt mixed I am thinking about running an air pump that will cycle the air contained in the chambers ( stops adding extra contamination ) and solar recharge it what's got me is why don't people in boats use this stuff? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UJGwHhZYp8 surely not hard to have cells be purged for fresh water on a cycle |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
Heres a stupid question- I haven't as yet found a really good diagram of just how salt batterys work (please don't point me at utube- with only 3g and $10 a gig data plans, utube costs me more than new li-on batts!!! (helstra only atm- optus sometime around 2020- maybe...) Could large capacity batterys be built using 1000l liquid containers (used for oil transport as an example- plastic cube with an aluminium cage around it, pallet sized) HV isnt an issue- (well its called `Danger- low voltage' these days- just doesnt have that `zing' to it that the old high voltage signs had lol) i'm off to google to see what exactly these batterys require could be my ideal battery- I need large AHrs, dirt cheap- space is not an issue (well as long as its less than 40 acres lol) Id like to build a 120v 4000ahr bank for my new house- currently looking at sealed gells (purely for cost) li ions would be nice in the future, but the price owies |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Boppa do you need that much storage? I have 1600AH @ 48V and I can run a normal house for 5-6 days of very cloudy weather. At present I have 7.5KW of PV, eventually I will increase that to 20KW then I should make enough power on a very cloudy day to power the house and have full charge every day. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Yeah I read 4000Ah too and thought that must be a mistake. How are you working out that figure? I live off 230Ah. 4000 would also need a lot of solar to keep it charged. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| joebog1 Senior Member  Joined: 07/11/2015 Location: AustraliaPosts: 114 |
I think this thread is REALLY ON TOPIC !!! I kood grab my cod piece and wave my glasses and install a 70 billion dollar CLEAN fired kole plant, while spouting rubbish at south australia because the clean electrons blew the transmission TOWER, YES one, down in a storm. Monday will fetch the answer when the Pri MInature answers why 40,000 homes had no coal electrons when a storm blew down the transmission tower in NSW. I have been searching endlessly for "cheap" battery solutions!!! Coal is out!! as the world says!! Adani will never get off the ground!! We "eccentrics" are/will/maybe be the way forward. ( please mods, thats meant in the best taste ) My chemistry is sadly lacking, but there MUST be a clean ( cleaner, maybe cleanish ) solution that doesnt cost a fortune. I at present pay 24.610 cents per KWH peak and 19.960 cents per KWH off peak TWO grannies ( wife n eye ) with very modest requirements pay $424.93 for the last quarter!!! ( I already use gas for cooking, BUT I rent and $2600 for my food was cheap, considering JUST this single change reduced the bill by ~ $400.00 ) and this is to a company that I call ERrhh GONE again. IF I changed my money into a bucket ( bag/swimming pool ) of salt water SURELY I would get change ?? OR at least have a supply that doesnt fail at LEAST three times per week during the wet season, and once a week in the dry. Second hand lead acid is cheap ( if sometimes unreliable) and still pollutes, PLUS we pay for the disposal thereof in the initial purchase. 40,000 16650 "cells" might be cheap, but its a pain!! Caterpillar batteries last well but are VERY expensive, ( not to mention heavy) and are still a long way short of solar deep cycle lead acid. Salt water !!! Might poison the lawn for a year when we change electrolyte, Might cost $300 to re paste the iron grids. Might take 2 weeks to re paste and bake. From what I have read they do about 10 years service, are damned reliable do not have toxic or explosive gasses are "cheap" by comparison, ESPECIALLY when we have thinking that suggests reusing "bulkies" ( one ton bulk liquid containers). ( Thanks BOPPA ) ALL of us need to input out thoughts here!! I may be a newbie!! I may say little!!! ( if ya dunno nuffin, SAY nuffin) This thread needs input!! With respects to the mods, AND, all other readers, Joe |
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| Boppa Guru Joined: 08/11/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 814 |
4000Ahr isnt a mistake, as it will also be running a workshop with cnc milling gear, lathe, grinders, air compressor and a couple of welders and a few hand tools so energy requirements are up considerably from just a small house The house itself will be built to be as energy efficient as possible and will be around 7kw of solar int three banks (1kw ne/5kw n/1kw nw) with ample room for future expansion of panels as required, but as the workshop wont be using power all day every day, storage is more important than production, as the solar would have several days to recover between heavy usages Plus I'm looking at split banks for house workshop so that the house wouldnt be left powerless if the workshop goes over on its battery consumption for the day I got a fair bit of money available when my house sells but this will be my retirement house, so I will only be getting one bite at doing things bigtime :-) |
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| Pete Locke Senior Member Joined: 26/06/2013 Location: New ZealandPosts: 181 |
If all the sales hype on these Aqueous Hybrid Ion batteries is close to the mark (their web site and others don't really have anything bad to say about them) then their only draw back is the real estate area needed for comparative lead acid or LiFe power delivered. If the space is available, then why not? Still a bit of time to wait for "Real life" usage of these things, but we will see. I'll be keeping an eye on how that goes, and I don't even have a solar setup.....yet. Cheers Pete' |
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| MasterCATZ Regular Member Joined: 25/03/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 52 |
I found the solution BURY THEM :P I was also considering making cells from my old 1000L IBC's but decided against it because too many would be needed to get 48v ( 2v cells ) I guess 200L drums might be doable what I did was bury PVC stormwater pipe's 3m deep in the ground ( found a use for the post hole digger after all :P ) this helps keep the system looking relatively small as the bulk of it is underground I am also injecting air into the pipes to help mix the salt water its a 5watt pump with an Arduino controlling solenoids so each cells gets a blast every minute the air is being recycled as all in the same sealed closed loop so no evaporation or contamination unsure if this actually help or not it's too early more time / testing required Also I did not pack these cells too tightly I am planning on making another pack later on tightly packed to compare with ( only loosely rolled so slipped into pipe easily ) I used powdered Magnesium + Graphite and rolled them up in cotton with fiberglass as the insulator and stainless steel mesh for the conductors so it was something like this Cotton layer sprinkle anode powder SS mesh sprinkle anode powder Cotton layer stitch together fiberglass matt Cotton layer sprinkle cathode powder SS mesh sprinkle cathode powder Cotton layer stitch together rolled it up ( the cotton is to help contain the electrode powder as its fine fabric and allowed water to pass through no idea how long it will take to rot these batteries are Relatively cheap to make compared to NiFe ( nickel foam was about $47 / kg in 2013 when i imported some from china) Magnesium was $3 / kg in bulk Graphite was expensive .. $30 /kg or $20k for 18 ton minimum order ... but can be obtained from the junk yards if you know where to look 20kw storage was around $100 per 2v cell and 500ah per post hole that was dug price's excluding fittings / pipes as I already had those I also need to work out just how much salt to add .... you would think more = better ? another thing to test in a smaller scale I have been distracted turning lead acid batteries into Alum batteries , looks like 20% Ah loss for ability to fully discharge BTW |
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| joebog1 Senior Member Joined: 07/11/2015 Location: AustraliaPosts: 114 |
Has anybody found a site/instructions on building SMALL test units ? Bucks are very short here, so cant expend that much. BUT, If I can build even one cell and play with the chemistry, I can put up some results. I spent years logging data on various projects, so writing down and presenting modifications and changes, recording inputs and outputs, analysing the "waste" or leftovers to see what has been consumed or converted. I have found this: http://www.noonco.com/edison/library.htm I need more if anybody has any links/papers/thesis. One thing I have is plenty of time :-) Apart from normal life cycle :-D Thanks to MasterCATZ for his input, although pics speak a thousand words. Regards to all Joe |
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| MasterCATZ Regular Member Joined: 25/03/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 52 |
Cells are still going strong , I am hoping to make another pack around x-mas holiday break I don't think I will change anything so I will make up a guide this time around only thing I need to do is coat the PVC in something UV resistant the tops got brittle other issues is they are impossible to do maintenance I did not not think of a way to drain them and they are really heavy and long to try and pull back out of the ground I would need to make some form of sleave to keep dirt away to help with removal I am also going to try and build something to keep track of power going in and out to try and measure their efficiency |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Can you post some photos? Fibreglass matt might be a very long term option to the cloth, you can get woven matt but it is not cheap. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Mulver Senior Member Joined: 27/02/2017 Location: AustraliaPosts: 160 |
Thats Awesome MasterCATZ, I would also love some pictures! So are you using 90mm storm water 3 m long? |
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| BenandAmber Guru Joined: 16/02/2019 Location: United StatesPosts: 961 |
I would love to see an update to this post be warned i am good parrot but Dumber than a box of rocks |
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| Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406 |
The problems with all of these ultra low performance batteries are the usually low cell voltages and the relatively high internal resistance. You cannot either fast charge them, or fast discharge them. Great for a bit of low wattage lighting perhaps, but you just cannot connect up some huge inverter and hope to switch multi kilowatt loads on and off. Likewise, a massive 80 amp capable solar array is useless if the battery can only accept a very low charging current for many tens of hours to fully recharge. And a very big difference between having one volt per cell, and three volts per cell if any reasonably high final voltage is required. And if the current capacity is limited by high internal resistance, a high battery voltage (at low current) is the only way to get a usable storage performance. It may be cheap, and it may be enormous in size, and STILL not make for a practical usable battery. Cheers, Tony. |
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