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Forum Index : Solar : Solar power only, is anybody doing it?
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Madness Guru  Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Thought this might be an interesting topic. How many out there are running 100% off solar power, no other generators, just 100% PV! I am interested to find out how many many kilowatts of panels do you need to keep you going regardless of what the weather is doing. Where I live near the coast in SE QLD there is enough sun most of the time but you get the occasional period of really wet weather such as early 2011 and 2013. My solar was not setup then, but I would think it would have been weeks without a full charge. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
I've been off grid for 4 years give or take. Started with 12 190watt panels, 2280 watts. Added another 8 panels last year, so now have 3800 watts. I also run a windmill, which helps alot with battery life. If its a windy night the windmill generates enough to offset power I'm using, which means I'm not draining my battery bank, one less discharge cycle, which then means I just earned a extra day battery life. I run 16 golf cart batteries, still seam healthy so expect a few more years yet. Never run out of power. But if its overcast for a couple of days, I will start to watch my usage. Not because I'm worried about running out of battery charge, but to protect the batteries, deep discharge is not good for them. On really rainy days, the panels still generate 100 to 300 watts, which is enough to keep the fridge, computer, etc all going. But I use the gas stove to boil the kettle instead of using the electric kettle for a coffee. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I have 7.5 KW of panels at present and 1600 AH of rejuvenated golf cart batteries. Average daily use at present is 15 KWH, soon I will be adding an air conditioner that draws up to 2.1 KW. However, it will only be used when there is plenty of sun and I have excess power available. Where I live at present we are connected to the grid but only a few things are running off of it, with a 1.5 KW grid tie we still get bills. In fact, the 1.5 KW grid tie we have will not cover the service charge as we only get 6 cents per KW as the government now steals the power we generate. Apart from a big rain event, the setup I have can easily supply all our power needs. If I did disconnect from the grid the 1.5 grid tie would be connected to the off grid system. I was talking with Oztules the other day about this, he said if I have 15 KW of panels I should be completely self-sufficient with no need for any other power source. So I am interested to hear if anybody has achieved this. Wind, hydro etc are not an option at this location. My plan is to be moving to a property shortly where there is no option to connect to the grid, due to the terrain a micro hydro could work but only when there is plenty of rain. My original plan was to use an 8KVA lister Diesel generator I have as a backup, but when I have my Ozinverter completed I will not have the option to use it as a battery charger. At present I am using a Trace inverter which works perfectly with the generator, it even automatically starts the generator and transfers all loads over to it and charges the batteries at the same time. But this inverter was built last century and the manufacturer is no longer around as well as there is no service information available. That is why it is being replaced as I don't know how long before it will fail. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
yep, I have done quite a few where we have had to drain the fuel out of the generator because it is not used and is stale. If someone is there during the day it is quite easy, if everybody is away it gets really tough but not impossible, there needs to be some automation to use power during the day. The only appliance that had me stumped was a clothes dryer, the high load just didn't fit with cloudy winter days but we found some dryers that use a similar system to the dryer in a dishwasher, they work OK. I have found that a group of panels that catch the morning sun make all the difference, either a tracker or panels angled NE. Some locations it is just not feasible. I have never got one through winter 100% of the time with just north facing panels. My rule of thumb ratio is, for the average WINTER days generate 3kwh store 1kwh in my (very sunny) area 1kw of panel will generate the 3kwh/day in winter provided it is pointed well. unfortunately that is also where most of the cost and headache is compared to flat mounting panels where-ever they fit. the original idea was not to eliminate the generator but reduce its size and cost. say from 5-12kva down to a little 2kva portable. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
So no one has actually achieved 100% solar and willing to own up to it. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
How specific do you want to be? Most off grid people will have a combination of solar, wind, hydro, backup generator. Relying on one power source is never a good idea. I dont need it but I have a windmill to extend my battery life, makes economical sense, but I dont need it. I could go 100% solar and sacrifice a few years battery life. I also use a generator for maybe 4 hours a year. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
I know most have a combination, however, the original question was. "How many out there are running 100% off solar power, no other generators, just 100% PV!" Solar panels are getting cheaper and there would be a point where PV panels could provide all power. I am not too concerned about batteries as I buy them for scrap value and the usual overnight drawdown is less than 10%. A couple months ago we had a wet week and I did get to 67%. Only a few have suitable hydro or wind locations, PV works in most places except if you have shading problems. I have built a generator that runs off wood chips, but that requires time and effort to get the chips and also dry them. Another discovery I have made and Oztules confirmed the same, if you have your panels flat they generate more power in cloudy weather. I know many will say they have to be at this angle or that, but if you have enough panels to carry you through the bad weather it does not matter when the sun is shining. One of my array's is 2.88 KW and is flat, another set of 3KW are at 26 degrees which is my latitude. On a cloudy day recently the panels lying flat made 5 KWH and those at an angle make 4 KWH. On a sunny day the ones at 26 degrees beat that flat ones by a similar amount. My theory is that the clouds diffuse the light and flat panels can capture more than those that are tilted. It is not the ideal conditions we need to optimize for, it is the dark days that we really need to get the best performance. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| M Del Senior Member  Joined: 09/04/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 155 |
About 20 people at work are off grid, all have some sort of backup generator, and most admit to using it a some stage. The reason is they could have bought more panels, but the thought of having to do without all the mod cons on the rare occasion panels would not be fully effective means they bought a generator as backup. Think a week or 2 of rain and clouds. So instead of 10kw of panels they bought 7kw of panels and (on average) a 7-10kw generator, which uses a lot of fuel when you run it for 12 hours overnight, every night for a week. 
I think they all went for the smallest battery bank possible, weird as most of them are engineers of some sort. Suggesting to run the generator until batteries are fully charged gets a weird look and a mumbled reference to fear of losing batteries. I don't know if it is the sales companies or the customers causing it. One guy last week finally decided on grid connect as the connection is only around $20k, he can still have 4kw of panels and the ability to still have his generator for when the grid is offline. So instead off 8kw of panels, big battery bank and 7kw gen set for $60k he is up for about $40k, and he will still be getting bills from a provider. No idea who his supplier is. Mark |
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Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Hi Madness, 9kW of PV with another 5kW going up now. 3off 3.7m diameter Hugh Piggott design wind turbines. Not totally Off Grid but getting there, achievement date about 2018. Cost effectiveness, yes, if you do the work and source good quality RE stuff at good prices. We here have a different philosophy to crawling into a compact hole. We are a community of ancient buildings restored to passive house standards, with a large family house, 6 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms, 2 gites, another underway, a lecture theatre etc. But the Builder, me, can only do so much. No generator. The first Big consideration is lack of sunshine. My battery bank is about 63kW or 48vdc at 1300ah at 10c. Its never enough. However, over the last 12 years I have stuck with Mono's and these give a 10% to 20% output in ambient light, ie murky gloomy days. So I have now concluded that our happy amount of PV that we now need is just over 30kW. So 3kW would be coming in on those bad days. My 12 years of observations. PS, The recent 5kW of good quality Monos PV is costing me $2600 USD. Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
Having to run a generator all night is not living off grid that's surviving as Oztules would say. With my current Trace Inverter I can start the generator and it will put up to 5 KW's into the batteries and still have 3 KW to run loads. This will put a lot of charge back into the batteries in 2-3 hours. I also know a few who are afraid to use the power in their batteries. As much as we try a lot of our power usage is at night, if only there could be a way to store sunlight and convert it to power as needed. Yahoo, I think you can get clothes dryers that use gas as a heat source, would be an easy way around that issue. Clockman, I am aiming for 13.5 KW of panels just to run one house with 3 people, and I am sure we get more solar radiance than you do in France. What is your average daily use, would 30 KW's of panels give you 100% of your needs? All my panels were bought secondhand from upgraded grid tie systems. Solar is certainly much cheaper than times gone by, did you know the Photovoltaic Effect was discovered by a French man called Alexandre-Edmond Becquerel in 1839. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
My present 9kW of PV is suitable/adequate in the summer, June until November. Our Summer daily use is about 8kW on average. 9kW PV in the summer runs the main domestic House a gite and my workshops with no hassle, and the batteries are well charged and in tip top condition. But its those winter months, especially the real cold times where I need approx. 20kW a day. Is 30kW enough? actually probably not for our needs,...... but its a touchy subject with the Mrs....... I need to tread softly. Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| Gizmo Admin Group Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
Man, I though 3.8kw was heaps! I lived happily off 2.28kw for 3 years, upgrading to 3.8 was luxury! I have enough power to live and eat and entertain and even run a air conditioner on hot days and a electric blanket on cold nights. I think we need to define the need better. The amount of solar needed to live comfortably, and the amount of solar needed to live in luxury. Not that there's anything wrong with living in luxury, I would if I could afford it, and the good thing about solar is your luxury isn't detrimental to the environment. Go for it! In my case, single bloke with gas cooking and solar hot water, 3.8kw is more than enough. Add a environmentally aware wife and 5kw would be enough, shared resources and that. Add a couple of kids, well, depends on their interests and hobbies I suppose. 8kW? But if I had power to burn, and could afford the bigger battery bank, then thats a different matter. I would run house air conditioning, day and night, electric heating and cooking. But that's not what I need to live comfortably, its luxury, different. The problem I see is people think they NEED this luxury level of solar, then see quotes for $60,000 plus, and walk away thinking its too expensive to go off grid. Its not. Rethink your needs and a system could cost less than 1/3 that, and you can live comfortably with no power bills. Glenn The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
the easy way would be not to do the washing if the weather was awful or have a drying room. Some people just want a clothes drier, even if they never use it. I have done 12 systems that I would consider solar only AFAIK the ones with gensets have only exercised them, its been 3-7 winters. the only problems we have had is down to sabotage and theft. a few systems dont even have a charger installed. the last 6 years have been a godsend for offgridders, there is so much stuff around now that uses minuscule amounts of power, and so many tweaks that can be done. I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| M Del Senior Member Joined: 09/04/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 155 |
SWMBO & I use 15-18kwhr a day, summer/winter no change. We have a 1kw grid connect at the moment, so import 10-13kwhr a day on average including off peak water. To go off grid we would need another 4-5kw of panels, shift the water heater to solar with daytime top up when the sun is shining & batteries are charged. Batteries maybe 4kwhr overnight draw down, so 30-40kwhr of good batteries (type?) for 10% discharge, charger & inverter etc. Panels at $5k, PL60 x 2 $1600, Latronics inverter $6k, batteries $12-15k plus fittings etc $30k without chasing prices, used components or hunting discounts etc and doing some of the work myself. And I could cut that by 25% again by enforcing power efficiency if allowed by SWMBO. But the adage "happy wife, happy life" comes to mind, ahh dreams. Mark |
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| Madness Guru Joined: 08/10/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2498 |
There is a happy medium there somewhere between a unhappy wife and one that expects too much. If I lived on my own I could get my needs down to 5 - 7 KWH per day, but we are a family and use 15 KWH easily every day. Soon I will be adding air conditioning, but that will be used on sunny days and won't be an issue to run 2 units, one drawing 1.6 KW max and the other 2.1. I could do this easily with the panels I have at present. But my aim is to be totally power self-sufficient on just PV. When there are clear skies it is easy, question for me is how many panels do I need to live comfortably and not end up single. There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't. |
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oztules Guru Joined: 26/07/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1686 |
There are a few installations down here now that came in around the $15000 dollar mark. They use 10kw of solar, home brew inverter, home brew solar controller, and 35kwh battery banks. They have no other form of power except they do have generator change over if necessary. So far that has never been required but for one exception... out on one of the islands parks and wildlife had a rat eradication team over in the worst sort of solar weeks we have ever seen 10 days of heavy rain... and 15 people... this was a bit much, and the genny ( 5hp with modified car alternator) ran for a day..... thats it... power was rationed after that as the 15 city folk had no idea of conservation, and left the shearing shed lights on all night (600w for 14 hrs before the sun comes up), 15 ;lots of phones and ipads, and coffee urn all day and night etc... it was not a fair go really... Apart form that event, there has been no generator support that I know of on the other sites. As a rough rule of thumb at 40 degrees south, if you normally use 15kwh/day then use 15kw of solar panels.... if that includes hot water, maybe a few more. If you don't go silly on the very dark days, ( not just overcast, but dark) you should only use the gennt for maintenance starts.. just to see if it still starts. I find that 10kw will generate about 8-10 amps in truly terrible light ( 48v system), and more than you can choke on when it is light cloud or sun.... thats 400-500w. If the heavy cloud brightens up even a little bit, your suddenly up in the 20-40 amp and more but still 8/8 cloud and pretty heavy... 8/8 cloud of single layer, and your back up in the 40-80 amps range... so it takes a miserable day to pull you down. If you go up to the 15kw arrays, your making more than normal quiescent current no matter what the weather is, and should get 6-7kwh at the very worst... you can live with this as a generality... ie fridges, freezers, lighting and most other stuff except for heating and cooling and hot water. With the cost of solar panels now, particularly second hand 250 watt panels, that 15kw array is cheap as nuts.... probably in the $7000 range, which leaves $6000 for batteries... and thats too much really, and a few thousand for inverter and controller and fixing materials. Lets be clear, there is no need for a monster battery or an expensive battery, better to use golf cart ones that will last 5 years, and replace them every 5 years. 6x220ah american batteries can be found for $200, so a 24 battery bank will only be $5000 ( you will probably get more years than that as they will rarely be discharged beyond 25%... and that should give 3000 cycles) Stylish expensive cells ( whilst I like them very much) are not necessary to produce a better system. Panels are key and the only thing that is critical, charge controllers are of little interest if you make your own, and mppt is next to useless for this setup... simple 150amp pwm will do fine... maybe $100, inverter around the $300 if using aerosharps or inspires.... point the panels any where you have access too. N, S, E ,W.... east is particularly useful to get the recharge going early, so a 3-4 kw looking east is a good thing, a few kw west, the rest can be almost flat... just enough to self clean, pointing any place. It really is cheap to go off grid if you ignore the experts, and their fancy add on's. You only need expensive add ons ( auto generator support and fancy software in your inverter) if your system is inadequate to start with, and now that can be solved with panels..... and you can build 2 of everything for next to nothing so redundancy is a given. The world has changed simply because power is easy to get now panels are cheap. Thats my 2 cents worth, and it is working on installations down here. Inverters are now only about $100 to build the electronics now, so I have plenty of spare change over units now. ( oddly, non have failed yet... I felt sure the island ones would as they are the hardest to get to... but no..) When the name brands fail ( and they do), it has taken weeks for the owners over here to get back on line.... no fault of the australian manufacturers/agents, but remoteness is everything, and real inverters are not trivial to transport off island and back... could build half a dozen for just the cost of freight alone if we use air freight. All kinds of things become irrelevant, such as cooling for panels.. we don't want any, so you can clamp directly to the roof if you want, as ventilation is a waste of effort.. we actually want attenuation when it gets hot... coz that means the suns out, and we have probably 7 times the power we actually want then... some losses would be more than welcome. Line loss is a good thing now for the same reason.. when there is lots of current, there is actually way way too much, so losses are irrelevant too, and when the light is poor, the losses will be tiny/non-existent. Mppt is useless for the same reason, may help when the light is poor, but that will be very rare for the complicated electronics that that brings, and the thousands of dollars that will add to the system.. for what? (15kw of mppt is not cheap... 15kw of pwm is a hundred bucks or so) But I am the village idiot after all, and am a bit different in my views too. I will do a thing on the solar controller soon ( Time??? ), and a thing on how to modify the 39 dollar 350w 48v pwm power supplies ( led lighting they use them for) to use as battery chargers. They should work off the shelf, but they don't have adequate o/current protection, so last night I fixed up the three that I blew up testing them( they lasted 10 seconds), and added current control.... now it is a proper tough charging alternative... ie a 40 amp charger for 48v system (38 up to 58v) is now $240 dollars and free shipping.... so you can set the current and the voltage ( I would set for 56... and leave it) Thats 6 units in parallel... and you can keep paralleling them.. ...........oztules Village idiot...or... just another hack out of his depth |
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| Clockmanfr Guru Joined: 23/10/2015 Location: FrancePosts: 429 |
Oztules, Very nicely written, especially as you are talking from an Off Grid point of view. Yet again your hands on abilities and technical understandings are inspirational, especially for us, cost effective, Renewable Energy, self empowerment folk. I will print out your above, and put it for our visitors to study, its a better explanation than mine. My Mrs reckons that when I am asked a general technical question, my reply is correct, but, "Within a few minutes the questioners eyes glaze over". Yes, I look forward to your 'OzSolar Controller'. Ps, Oz, were you in the diplomatic service?, you seem to handle most folks situations with openness, patience and tactfulness, ie, your kind. Everything is possible, just give me time. 3 HughP's 3.7m Wind T's (14 years). 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (10 yrs). 21kW PV AC coupled SH GTI's. OzInverter created Grid. 1300ah 48v. |
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| M Del Senior Member Joined: 09/04/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 155 |
+100 what clockmanfr said Oz. Your writing is excellent. I have been many places where massive gen sets run 24/7 even when there is little need for power that could be covered by batteries, especially in the middle of the night when everything is shut down. Many years ago we built a trailer with 6 175 watt panels, 8 6v golf cart batteries, inverter and charger for bush/field work. No noise and it worked well, off duty times it parked at one of our houses powering a fridge etc. It was expensive but the peace and quiet at night was bliss. To build now would be 20% of the cost. At the same time there was also some large generators in the area at times, but when on our own we worked out of the trailer. I have read most of your work here and other places and when able will take on an inverter. I am a 12/48 mech and have dabbled in electronics over the years, the 48-240v is at the top end of my knowledge, so I will reference to off shelf stuff in 240 as that is what the missus will allow at the moment. Something about regulations etc and I am not an electrician. Which is funny as a lot of countries allow you to do your own house wiring etc, and capable owners will likely do a more thorough job than a hired sparky who is rushing the job and may never see the house again. Mark |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Oztules, Great post and I would love to be able to put something like that together. Money for me is problem, but even if I buy 40W (24V open circuit) solar panel every month for $70, or something bigger every few months, in few year I could have a kW or 2 of panels. Then I could keep adding. Charge controller and inverter that are under $300 each is music to my ears and pocket too. Did you put something together for self bought system? George |
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home heater Newbie  Joined: 03/03/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 9 |
"How many out there are running 100% off solar power, no other generators, just 100% PV!" Yes, in Portland, Vic, no generator, no wind, 100% solar. I have had wind and it is a great hobby, but it just doesn't charge every day like PV does. PV wins, wind assists but is not needed during the day, and we have long periods of no wind at nite. I will be putting up another w/g just 'cos I love them whirring and wizzing around and making electricity for free, just for fun. Best spend you money on more panels rather than a genny. Over the years I have added to my system until I now have 20kw of panels (18 pumping and two ready to go up). Very overcast knocks panels down to one tenth of their output, so that gives me 2kw which is just enough to get by with for the day and charge the batteries. I am a rusted on Selectronic fan and have a few of them, from SA30's to a couple of PS1's, one 24 5kw and a 48v 6kw. All preloved. I have used batteries that are doing fine, we don't use much over nite to save the batteries. My fridge is forced to run during the day to freeze two 3lt plastic milk containers against the evaporator, this lasts all night so the fridge doesn't run, little 24 inch 36 watt telly, and I run an air filter all nite too, doesn't use much on low speed, laptop (runs on power, battery buggered), and a CFL or two. CFL's are on a par with leds for power usage. So how much solar is enough, I have lived with my first kw right up to my present array, I am pretty happy with it now and the law of diminishing returns is always present, at one tenth output in overcast weather, one kw returns 100 watts. That's back to the old days, $10 a watt! MPPT, here is an example, I have a 190 watt 72 cell panel on my van. A PWM can return a maximum of 5 amps (max panel current) to the battery, that's 65 watts at say 13v. Mppt will use all the panel power, you are wasting far to much potential power with PWM. MPPT will return near 300% more power from this panel! Sorry to disagree with you oztules, my experience with MPPT has shown them to be well worth installing. I have 4 Midnites, they have become the brains of my system, they know the state of charge of the batteries. They have two highly configurable aux outputs that I use to control excess power use, I heat water with a 750 watt element (going heat pump soon, I was given one!). So now we have hot water on days when a flat plate solar water heater doesn't heat at all, there is still enough power in overcast light to heat water when collected with PV. I do have flat plate collectors. Of course I have a lot of power available when the sun is blessing us that I am unable to use, that's the price you pay for having enough power when it is overcast, and in our climate, that's near all winter. To be realistic, we need 20kw with no generator, that was one of my goals, no genny. As my system has grown ad hoc I have ended up with both a 24v and 48v system (oh, yes, the original 12v system is still there too, I use 12v for solar heating control, and car radios in various places). How much does it cost? Far too much, I would have paid electricity bills for the rest of my life if we had stayed on the grid. (I'm an old bloke tho) I justify the expense because it is my hobby (system all self installed), power security and the future, who knows what power will cost in the coming years. We use 20kwh a day, more in summer pumping water, I filter used cooking oil into a vacuum to dry it, this runs a vacuum pump, a little eBay centrifugal pump, and a 200 watt heater to warm the oil for filtering, my old Toyota runs fine on it and has done many 1000's of km. We cook with a gas stove but have a microwave and no probs to use the electric frypan during the day. We use a little electric kettle during the day too. The best way to cook with electricity is the slow cooker, they only draw 100 watts or so and tea is ready when you are, convenient. So keep on buying panels folks, that's the way to go, and as I read in a post here they are cheap used, nothing wrong with the 190's, there are quite a few of those advertised, but do invest in MPPT for best return from your panels, it is money well spent. The Midnite is among (if not) the best, pretty pricey, but after the money has gone you are left looking at a very clever piece of electronics that can do a lot more than charge batteries, made in USA. I have the 150's, 4 250w panels or three 190's in series. Use the sun to heat, I painted my roof black and covered it with glass, sun shines thru the glass and heats the iron. I suck air up under corrugations and fan it into the house (in the bathroom) thru an air door that opens in the ceiling. When the roof space is hotter than the house, a fan starts and the air door opens, filling the house with fresh solar heated air. Haven't done any calculations but the air in the house would be replaced a couple times an hour. This works so well I have thrown the wood heater out. It works surprisingly well when overcast, but of course not heavily overcast. I have about 30 sqm of collection. So the bathroom is the drying cabinet as well, and dry, no mould. Nice to have a warm bathroom! Madness, flat panels do indeed make more power in overcast weather, just when you need it most, the university educated are wrong, need to re-write the text books mate. And of course, flat(er) panels are best in summer. Allan Portland Vic do it yourself |
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