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Forum Index : Solar : Solar setup skimping, use of AC wires....
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Lapsy Senior Member  Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103 |
O.K Here is the deal (Yes! here it is!). Got a solar setup cranking. When setting up I went off to buy cable. Came home with some cheap sh*tty speaker cable because it was cheap (I thought). Felt like a dickhead when I got home and held speaker cable in my hands, looked down, sitting on the floor was an unused extention cord. So I've gone with double insulated extention cords now. Seems they are cheap to buy, double insulated, decent size core (compared to speaker cable), and seeing as I have already bought them for house use I have an abundance. Here is the other thing (Yes! here it is! lookout!)..... This is all fine plugging things in and what not. Putting plugs on the end of things used for a 12v solar system. (DO NOT MISTAKE A 12v LINE WITH A PLUG, FOR MAINS USE, JUST BECAUSE IT HAS A PLUG ON THE END!) My question is (Yes here it is! Woo hoo!)... IF you use a 4 plug power board as a junction.... what is the deal with the 10A surge arrester protection seeing as it is for 10Amp AC ? What happens when you belt 11Amp DC through it? What does it/can it/can't it.... do? Cheers! P.S. I know the connecting plates in the plug are not as good as a solder or straight through line of copper wire. Thats not what I am getting at. I'm using plugs as they are everywhere in abundance, they are easy handling and not fiddly. Ignore this part of the argument. If I could I would chop the meterbox wire and send 12v down the line in my house to wall outlets and light fittings and change all to required to 12v. That is more my example..... just wondering about AC stuff that may be hindering or of use. This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy. |
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Downwind Guru  Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
I think you are very foolish for using mains plugs for low voltage, or might i say you are a total F***ing idiot for doing it. There is rules and regulations for very good reasons, and your cheap ass approach breaks all the rules and regulations. When a loved one or a child of a close friend ends up dead and crisp like toast from your dumb ass idea of saving a few pennies, then dont say you have not been told or warned. For these reasons i will not answer you question and urge others not to reply to a person with so much disrespect to regulations and saftey. I hope you get caught and a hefty fine or jail for doing such a dumb thing.  Sometimes it just works |
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| Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103 |
O.K mate. You said your bit. Unsure what the problem is your getting at. I am running 12v down a wire. For D.C the fatter the cable the better. Have a look at your car battery terminal wire. Why not replace that with speaker wire and see how far you get? I have many fuses in line, this is a seperate circuit. Is double insulated cable not safer? find that hard to believe! I am basically saying you could rig up 12v only electric to your house system, just dont have 240V. Whats wrong with that? The AC surge protector is what I am asking about basically. In the 4 plug power board? What if Dc goes down an AC line how does the power board surge protector react? I am not going to use it. I just want to know for my own information. Would that not make things safer for anyone out there thinking the same? Tell me the rules and specs and lets see if I am breaking the law, then I can alter anything accordingly. I think tis is your argument about the plug any you may be 100% correct. Inform me! Surely it is not illegal to buy a panel and a 12v regulator and play around with electronics on 12v? Also, there will not be any loved ones going to a crisp as I paid for the circuit. If they want to crisp themselves they can buy their own crisper. This is my design I am flipping around tossing up ideas for. So are you saying cable rated at 10Amp AC is unsafe for 12v D.C use? I think you have maybe misread my post. Think about a portable house in the middle of knowhere with no electricity, no mains connection. Only water. could even say it is just a shed in a field..... Why cant you just put a panel up on a stand, with a regulator and live life on 12v? Thats what I am saying! If the mains plug is not safe as a "connector" then say so. It will not break the bank converting it, it is the cable where you save money. Cutting the plugs of is no big deal at all. Also, not all connections are plugs, I do use car cigg lighter connections. Every line is fused. It is the 4 way power board that has a surge arrester. Extention cords are wires only. You may also be forgetting that in the U.K every plug has a fuse in it. What if you are in a shed in a field with no AC mains power what so ever. Is the mains plug still dangerous as a connector (NON SURGE PROTECTED, just a wire with a plug connector)? The arresters I am talking DC going into an AC surge arrester, what happens? Not the other way around. Just asking for an answer, not a lecture. There are 100's of different ways to connect to wires together, connectors, screw clips e.c.t. The mains plug is not an issue it they can all be thrown in the bin for all I care, it is the cable I am after. I don't think it is a stupid question at all... Put the question up for an answer. Thats all! Surely there is someone out there who has this type of setup going on in the middle of nowhere, outback or something already!? Not talking about surge arrestors, but just using cable for cable? This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy. |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Its not the wire thats the problem its using mains plugs and power boards with mains fittings is where the problem is. Any cable that has a mains plug and used for DC is just asking for trouble, that is why we have standards for mains power and these standards are regulated to ensure that saftey is always maintained. It might be fine in your eyes to cut corners, but what happens when someone sees a mains cable and plugs 240v AC into a DC circuit, as 99.99999% of time a standard 3 pin mains plug is dedicated to mains only applications. There is DC style wall sockets that have a different pin configuration to prevent these types of problems, or standard MC4 solar plugs dedicated for the use of solar wiring, Anderson connectors, trailer plugs etc, the list is long that is exceptable for DC wiring use. I would not care if you just used screw terminals to join your wiring, just dont use products that have a mains style plugs and sockets that can be easy removed and mains power accidently plugged into it. (that might even be a generator) From your last post you imply you intend to still use mains plugs and sockets with power boards for connectors for DC which is foolish. Sometimes it just works |
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| Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103 |
This I 1000000% agree with. I have been stating that these would be used in an environment with NO AC MAINS WHATSOEVER. That's why I gave the example of a shed in a field. Sorry to have to go to extremes. Maybe I am not the best explainer.... You were making me laugh for a bit there, about lagging me in to the authorities and banishing my freindships made online. I imagine the call to the police station would have been someting like " Come quick! There is this guy online and he is soldering up his own circuits on 12v! And using solar! Get him!". Last I heard you can pretty much do what you want up to 20V I think. So buying 24v solar panel and self installing is out of the question I gather? No idea if there is an AMP limit on 12v though (Maybe you know?). The world would change if they clamped down on Amps E.G you can have a 12v system but cant be over 5 Amp or something like that. This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy. |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
In all due respects i still think you are a f***ing idiot if you use mains connectors for a DC application, even in the most remote part of this country regardless of the location. I have worked in third world countries where anything goes, and they use what they can get their paws on to wire up a power system, even to the point of making live power connections to the grid passing their door. (no meter, no fuses) We have rules and regulations in this country for a very good reasons and if you have seen some of the 3rd world wiring like i have, then you would respect the regulations far better and not use a mains intended system for a low voltage application. Scenario Think of it like you used a mains plug/socket extension cord lead to connect your caravan to the car to charge the caravan battery while driving, cheap, great system, works well. Then the sister in law borrows the caravan and while away, the brother in law plugs the 240VAC generator into the DC charging plug thinking its a mains power plug for the caravan power, and blows the living daylights out of your battery, followed with a hydrogen gas explosion from the charging battery whist driving and a shower of sulphuric acid all over your relatives in the caravan, and perhaps blindness to your relatives from acid in the eyes or shrouds of plastic. Its a simple situation that could go bad at any point of misunderstanding, design the problem out, and use a non mains connector, end of problem. I dont say this Scenario fits your application, but fools are everywhere and the best you can do is design to make it harder for the fool to make a mistake, nothing is fool proof, but dont be a fool and design a system that tempts Murphy I could not give a dam about using the 1.5 - 2.5mm twin and earth extension cord cable/wire, its only a mains standard plug and socket that i have a problem with. Why temp Murphy, Here is a link Yahoo2 posted at the start of the year, this would allow for 10 Anderson connectors for $20.00 and would remove the possibility of a wrongful connection of mains to a low voltage system. http://www.sidewinder.com.au/page16.html Just think about what Murphy might do with mixing mains voltage and low voltage systems together, design Murphy out of the equation and use a different connector other than mains intended fixtures. Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103 |
Can we change the Brother/Sister in law to Mother in Law who borrows the caravan? 
Your just giving me ideas now..... Agree completely mate. I don't want a 3rd world system! I was thinking about an RCD instead of replacing fuses. I read somewhere there is a type available for DC circuits, so you can have the clipsal type switch in line. Extention cable wire would rig up nice to it. Gather they are about $30-$40 bucks maybe? Not researched models or numbers yet. Maybe you know? Secondly I've seen a 12v wall type outlet on generators and caravans. Pins are flat and there is only 2 lined up like..... I - Kind of like RC connectors. I am imagining a small house/shed with 12v wall outlets that have the plastic look and finish simmilar to clipsal ones, but do have a different connector/plug/adapters to mains. This is closest I can find to it at the moment - DC Caravan wall outlet See... alot of gadgets these days are low voltage. Laptops, phones, chargers... I am definate it is possible to live a 12v lifestyle. Hot water is not an issue, gas would be the solution there if not keen on solar hot water or affordability is a problem, just google and checkout the ecotemp L5 LPG shower! I bought one and they kick ass! Highly recommend! I am looking into 12v heating elements also, but on a small setup, showers might have to be in the evening. Plus... you would not want to wait all day to clean up a kitchen with hot water. Air conditioning would be an issue if refridgerated, but an evaportive is no problem. Cooking can be gas or electric. Fridges are abumdant in 12v and LPG. Thats the basics sorted, T.V's and the rest are luxurys really! I figure once you got the basics sorted, powering a TV e.c.t is the bonus add on. Phones are easy as well as laptops, just the bigger items like a 40 inch LCD e.c.t are the issue but not totally essential. Washing machine can be done, have seen some ripper caravan ones with steel drums for $400. Then again the alternative is the laundrette. I dont know anyone who has 5 washing machines, so the laundrette can smash a few loads in an hour. What else do you need to live life? Whats missing? I have even experimented with Mini Itx computers on solar, actually looking at setting up a decent dual core to hang off the line with the DC/DC PSU I have. Just trying to unhook from the electric company as I genuinly think I can do it as a renter. I maybe be one of the few giving it a go out there. Still feel the government is giving renters a raw deal with now solar options. The appliances I have purchased would suit a DC system perfectly, and I really think there would not be a difference, other than the supplier of the electricity is myself and the sun. This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy. |
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| Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103 |
Noticed I forgot to also mention the thin cable is not for the panel setup. It was to run off it and play around with a few globes and just run a temp wire for testing odd things. This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy. |
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yahoo2 Guru Joined: 05/04/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1166 |
public warning-- unsafe generators PDF Lapsy, if you are wiring something permanent in the walls of a house the clipsal 402/32 socket and matching plug 492/32 is an the OK solution. For everything else 12 volt almost anything goes, there are hundreds of suitable connectors and most cable is fine for low amp stuff and most of it is free!. The only thing to think about is this, Will the plug pins fit in a 240 volt socket? If there is the slightest chance that they can be bent up and forced in, don't use them. When you work with electricity you need to be wary of two types of people. The stupid ones who will kill themselves or their family given the slightest chance. Don't touch that wire mate, it's still live OK.... WHAT you mean this wire? BANG 
And the self-centered ones who will seemingly deliberately kill you, if you give them a chance. I now use a lockbox with a thumbprint scanner to keep the fuses and safety lock keys locked in. I have had people take my car keys, unlock my vehicle, grab the fuses put them back in and switch the power on while I was working on it. It is unbelievable. I didn't think it was possible, but it happened to me twice in a week. I have even had some  wit electrocute himself trying to steal an electric fence energiser.I'm confused, no wait... maybe I'm not... |
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| Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103 |
Thats a much nicer response! Must say! I understand everyones concern. I am a bit of a recycler, try not to let anything go to waste. Always lugging home PC's out of hard rubbish and the like for stripping e.c.t... I realize in this case my resourceful ideas have led to some concern on here. It is not about being cheap, for me it is about saving useful things instead of throwing them out. Yes this saves a buck... but still happy to throw the $$$ down if required. Not a cheap skate, but rest assured I am not a millionaire either! I will research this clipsal socket and plug, knew there had to be something out there I just had not seen it yet. Stealing an electric fence! That's funny! Sure he was in for a shock at some point! Seems like it also pays to work alone in some cases on electricity. Least you know all the variables and wont have another person interfering behind your back. For the record I will not touch anything on mains. Closest I get is wiring a plug up if required, but I know I am no electrician. I think Downwind thought I was tapping into the meter box or something when I said I would cut the cables on the meter box if I could. Firstly I am in a rental so that's not gonna happen. Secondly of course I would get an electrician to do that in my own joint. I am not that game, or in a syndicate drug growing operation where I need to steal massive amounts of power to run my enterprise. So I am still wondering when I will get arrested with a hefty fine for all my wrong doings on 12v!!?? Think your over cooking the situation to be honest in that regard. I agree with the plug scenario, this is a breeze to change, like I said there are hundereds of ways to connect 2 wires together. I undrstand rules and regulations e.c.t. not being ignorant, just inform me that it is illegal to use a mains plug on 12v if that is the case? That's all you have to say! I am not a rebal resistance hailing mains plugs as the only way to go! I still make the point that there if there is no 240v power I think you can relax a little! No immediate threats there. But... yes... if someone hijacks a mains plug wired for DC and uses it on mains, a fatality will occur. POINT TAKEN!!! <---- Ok I think we have had enough warnings and crap for the meantime... I am now familiar with the local copper on here. Lets move on to something, so we can get stuff done! I will stick to cars and the like. I am all for attempting a 12v house setup, if mains is required an inverter or generator is the go I recon. Have seen a generator running off an LPG 9KG bottle a guy is selling round my way. Interested in the PDF on generators in relation to this. This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy. |
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| M Del Senior Member Joined: 09/04/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 155 |
Off topic but related Yahoo wrote "When you work with electricity you need to be wary of two types of people. The stupid ones who will kill themselves or their family given the slightest chance. Don't touch that wire mate, it's still live OK.... WHAT you mean this wire? BANG And the self-centered ones who will seemingly deliberately kill you, if you give them a chance. I now use a lockbox with a thumbprint scanner to keep the fuses and safety lock keys locked in. I have had people take my car keys, unlock my vehicle, grab the fuses put them back in and switch the power on while I was working on it." It's not only with electrical you have to be carefull. I once had a customer start an engine when I was fitting fan belts. Luckily I was getting another spanner when it occured. Both the customer and my boss laughed about it till they saw green all over the floor. They then tried to blame me for the radiator. Packed my tools, gave workcover a ring and left with all my entitlements. They are everywhere. Mark |
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| Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103 |
Speaking of workplace accidents, I have a great story for you! Worked briefly at a food processing plant. For 8 months I operated a 500kg mixing machine that dropped a square pallet load of product into those heshan bag type pallet things. The drop hatch had no guard on it. Opened hydrolicly to drop the product. Once open the mixing blades passed the hatch and you could have stuck your arm in and lost it if not careful. No one mentioned s*#t about it at the labour hire place. I was 10 years younger at the time and just did not realize that this was not normal. Thought it was all in a days work to get your cash in your pocket. Like walking on scaffold at heights.... Anyways, after 8 months passed, I got a little niggly RSI type pain in my hand from thrashing the overtime at work and got 2 days off. Enjoying my recovery the first night off and free time, I went and got drunk (as you do), testing my hands RSI of course! Went down the local nightclub on a Thursday chasing some skirt. It was reknowned to go off and be a good night out so went for it. Can't remember if I got any that night but ended up not going in the next day as they gave me leave for recovery. Woke the next day and called work, said I would visit to explain the situation and that I would be back the next day. This was at about 8am the call was made. Not being at work they had someone else operating my machine, and at the same time this particular person had just got their friend a job at work. He had just had his safety induction probably between 7-8am. By about 9.30am the woman operating my machine had her hand trapped in the mixer hatch. Hosing it out with water to clean it she leaned in too far and the mixer blades pinned it to the side of the hatch. The emergency stop button was now out of reach and she was unable to move to it. Her friend came over to assist (who only got the and just started his first days work about 2 hours before), stopped the machine. Still pinned she remained there. The machine had a reverse button for the blades. He said they would undo the emergency stop and hit reverse to back the blades off the pinned wrist. What the new guy did not know was the machine took 2-3 seconds to change direction, he hit the button and her hand was removed and fell in the machine. The leading hand ordered my workmate to reach in and get the hand out of the machine. He told him to no way, you grab it, so he reached in and grabbed the hand and put it in a bucket of water. I arrived after all of this. Walking in to find work stopped, my bosses wife in tears. Workmates all white looking and pale faced in shock. I walked around to the section I worked in to the machine they had me working on and there was a pool of blood under the machine. This could have been me any of the days I worked there! Do not regret leaving that place one bit, even after they whisked the machine away and got a guard fitted. Then eventually firing a chunk of staff associated seemingly, me being 3rd from last after watching others dropping off. I had a piss weak argument with the supervisor which a day later resulted in me being "no longer required" and fired politely basically as I was casual. I heard there was a world class micro surgeon visiting Adelaide RAH at the time, who heard of the incident as the injured girl was rushed into hospital. He happened to be in the ward at the time, apparantly offered his services and sewn her hand back on. Still don't think that is a happy ending..... This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy. |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
This idea is such a potential trap that should never be used. George |
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| Lapsy Senior Member Joined: 28/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 103 |
For the record that Clipsal socket suggested is the one I have been looking for. Also for the record, because people like saying how dangerous things are. Remove the danger, it is no longer dangerous. Correct on potential it may have. Completly understood but will still say it is not the plug that kills you, but the electricity. Yes feel free to repeat repeat repeat until bored and annoyed, stressed. Hope you feel better now. Topic crushed, killed, destroyed. Get over it now, you have pointed out the issue. If you want to enhance this thread and bring it to a nice close, please post up the guidelines for electrical law for all to see and read in relation to 12v or mains plug use. Official papers please! Links e.c.t. Highlighted paragraphs. Think everyone should be entitled to know where this information can be obtained easily, so they can read and research themselves. Can't expect everyone to be an instant electrician just by logging in on here! Thanks! P.S What's this? Is it a part of this site or affiliated? http://www.maximiteforum.com/ I got an invite!? And in the same day I got an SMS saying I won 1000000 million dollars! Just have to email them! Yeah right! Some Nigerian in a net cafe most probably.... Last one of those lotto things I got I responded to them saying that $1000000 really was not worth my time and effort. Haha! This is my signature ---> Scribble, scrawl, a bit of light pencil shading, some indelable ink and a bit of caligraphy. |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
OK if you fear nothing and have to do it this way, had a thought few days ago. Australian power plug can be only plugged in one way, which is good. Another thing we only need 2 pins, so POWER pin can be removed leaving only NEUTRAL and EARTH ones to carry '+' and '-' This doesn't remove all danger, but whoever picks up such a plug and looks before connecting to AC will see that something is not right. Different story if one doesn't notice something is wrong and puts to power point that has POWER connected to wrong side of the socket. George |
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