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Forum Index : Solar : Australian Standards and DIY solar install
Can I legally install solar panels and do the wiring myself to the entire system?
Just purchased a house under the umbrella of Bundaberg Council in Queensland and property is classed as rural/residential. Wanting to install solar panels myself and keep it legal. Panels will be installed on a carport roof, that is not attached to the house. The solar power will be used in a house wiring circuit, completely independent of the grid system. Initial newly installed string will be used to power house lighting.
Apparently, the Australian Standards have changed around 2019. From what I understand, DIY knobs like myself are now limited to installing an electrical system limited to DC voltages up to 60 volts and AC voltages up to 35 (peak) volts....plus follow something like 40 pages of extra red-tape if using lead acid batteries. Think there is a limit to the Amp-hour rating for the solar system too but can't find the new reference. Top of my head, think it was around 1000 or something useless.
...think this is clear as mud :P
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 06:24am 08 Oct 2021
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Things definitely changed at 2019, and one of the interesting things is that the definition of extra low voltage (ELV) changed from 60v dc max to 115v dc max.
See AS3000 1991 section 0.5.95 ELV.
The Australian/New Zealand AS3000 standard is expensive, and a difficult and tedious read, but well worth the investment if you are planning a solar adventure and wish to stay on the right side of bureaucracy.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 06:48am 08 Oct 2021
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Not unless you are a licenced sparky with the additional solar Certification.
Then unless you are licenced, it won't be legal.
Yes, that is about how I understand it as well. I think the old regs was 90V.
Last time I was bored enough to read through the encyclopedia length rules and regs and discuss them with some people, There are a load of holes in them. Several things that are in Conflict. If you obey one rule you are breaking another and it's impossible to do both. Ridiculous and to the letter of the regs, Impossible for any install to fully comply. Full of unnecessary, illogical, pedantic and even dangerous specifications.
I believe they have recently or are about to repeal the idiotic roof top isolator law. Caused more fires and problems than enough and outlawed about everywhere in the world but here. The Victorian Fire brigade refused to have them on their facilities and mandated all that were on their buildings were removed due to the high number of fires the things were causing. Completely useless idea anyway. The firies won't go on burning buildings to shut down solar systems. If you want to shut one down just disconnect a pair of panels in the series and job done.
I am not in the slightest fussed about being legal and compliant and have done several installs myself. Did one today for a mate which I will finish tomorrow. Another friend of his wants one. This bloke worked for a power company for many years and I told him anything I do is not legit. He said I know, that's why I would like you to do it, stuff them, I know what they are like.
Apart from being unlicensed, the installs I have done would be in fact " Too safe" and violate regs because of things I put in like multiple breakers and insulation on wiring. Incredibly, in the regs they LIMIT these things.
Personally, I don't give to hoots about rules and regs. They are to me nothing more than fastest way possible for people in the industry to achieve a bare minimum safety standard. They are also over the top on many things obviously for the sake of profit over all else. I have a load of panels I got brand new because their approval had expired. They changed the regs from panels having to have 6 or 8 earthing holes to 8 or 12 whatever it was. Each panel only needs one earthing point ( which is pointless anyway) but this gives the industry a means to keep the money rolling in by making old systems non compliant and requiring total replacement instead of repair.
I have also Fixed a couple of systems done by these professional, qualified expert installers and the chit they did and the shortcuts they took I wouldn't even be able to dream up. One pack of clowns " Installed" a mates system and connected the panels back to each other instead of the inverter. After 2 additional people came out from the company after the original clown couldn't make it work, I had a look and sorted the mess with all the skill and equipment of a multi meter I could muster in 10 min flat. Ran perfect till the inverter gave out and I replaced that for him and ran another 5 years till he had the thing upgraded with a Much bigger system.... Which they managed to get right this time first go even.
From what I have seen of off grid, they really bend people over on that with what they charge. They make it out to be some special black art but there are a lot of people here that have outdone any commercial setup.
Especially with an off grid system, I don't understand why anyone would worry about rules and regs but up to them. It's a complete crock that has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the industry whom are the ones that write the rules not anyone independent, to keep feathering their own nest with max profits. Literally the fox deciding on how the hen house is to be constructed. When a system is stand alone and it's not even grid connected, far as I am concerned no ones business but mine.
If being complaint and legal is critical to you , then you are SOL on doing anything yourself.
If you prefer to be master of your own domain and are confident in your skills and knowledge, then there are many other avenues open to you.
Solar sure as heck ain't rocket Surgery and it's designed for the lowest common denominator in the industry which means average people can do it very easily.
Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 455
Posted: 11:15pm 08 Oct 2021
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Hi Tony, you are dead right about the AS3000 rules being difficult to interpret. I was an electrical contractor in my working life. There were a few times that I ran across Electrical Inspectors for the supply authorities who did not know the rules. A couple of times I had recourse to appeal to the Standards Australia authority for rulings on what the rules actually meant. And also to the chief electrical inspector in the state. Sometimes the Standards Authority could not tell me what their interpretation of the rules they wrote meant. It was up to the inspector to decide, even when shown the relevant sections some refused to budge on their weird decisions.
I still do my own wiring, for solar stuff I keep my string voltages under 100 volts DC. As the house was already wired for mains when we bought it, we just removed the mains connection and used a plug at the inverter to connect the house.
Mangrove Jack, you can legally do wiring on your system up to the 120 volt DC limit. any 230 volt stuff must be done by a licenced electrical contractor. Even supposedly on a stand alone system. You may not run foul of supply authorities on a stand alone system but house insurance can be an issue. Insurance companies see their business as collecting money, not paying it out. So will sieze any opportunity to not pay in the event of a problem. Pete
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 04:10am 09 Oct 2021
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Haha Pete, electrical inspectors are a race apart, think they are Gods.
I once used to be a supervisor for the electronic installation section at the ABC, we were rebuilding a TV studio for colour TV back in the day.
Anyhow the studio lighting system used lighting battens which could be raised and lowered by electric winches so that studio lighting could be added, remove, adjusted and so on. Some of these lights were 5Kw each, and there could be several of them on a single batten. Power cam down from the roof in flat multi cored cable with heavy rubber sheathing. This cable was like Z fold printer paper, it zig zagged down into a metal tray. Its standard common cable used to supply power to lifts, cranes and other equipment that must move over considerable distances.
This cable has all black wires, even for the ground, which must be green. Usually its sleeved with coloured sleeving each end which is perfectly within the rules.
One disgruntled employee got the sack, and promptly reported to the electrical inspector that all the wiring was black, actives, neutrals and grounds, all black. The inspector arrived, and threw a fit, made all kinds of threats, but was promptly told in no uncertain terms to piss off.
The guy on the front reception desk of the TV station, a uniformed commissionaire, an old military buffer, and a really good bloke, threw him out on his arse.
He was back an hour later with a second electrical inspector, and they were going to condemn thew whole multi million dollar project.
About ten minutes later, five very burly Federal Police arrived and carted these two electrical inspectors off the premises kicking and screaming. They were told they were on Federal property and causing a nuisance, and they had no jurisdiction.
I think its about the funniest thing I can ever remember. Absolutely priceless.Cheers, Tony.
Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 455
Posted: 05:20am 09 Oct 2021
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Hi Tony that would have been fantastic to see. It must have been changed but it used to say in the rules that the cables had to be coloured the whole length. But then along came the use of XLPE cable where the sheath is black and the core clear insulation. So then it became OK to use heatshrink on each end. I was under the impression that it is not legal to sleeve the end of a cable to denote it as an earth wire. Maybe it has changed it is over 10 years now since i gave up on that. I had a big argument here with Aurora energy because the inspector demanded that I put shrouds on the rear of power points. I asked him why and he said it was because there was sisilation foil in the wall. I pointed out that there was also 90mm of polyester insulation between the foil and the back of the powerpoint. His retort was to ask "what if the wall gets wet" I answered that it would be a serious matter for the builder and questioned whether he wanted me to use waterproof fittings in case the wall got wet. The rules in the way back (1980s) stated that sheathing was only to be removed a maximum of 3 inches (75mm) behind a fitting so that no single insulation could come in contact with any structural metal work in the wall. The rule the inspector was quoting that I had infringed according to him was that single insulated cables could come in contact with structural metalwork. I tried to point out that aluminium foil is not actually structural. Again he knew best. Aurora tried to get me to pay a defect fine for my transgressions but I refused. They had trouble understanding why I would refuse to pay. In the end the workplace safety chief inspector decided to delete the defect. Yep those inspectors are an odd bunch. Pete
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 06:32am 09 Oct 2021
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This is similar to the cable we were using, but ours were all black, no green earth. Its industry standard cable, and still is.
Later I worked for a company that supplied scientific and medical equipment to hospitals. Our equipment was manufactured in Europe and the mains wiring was brown, blue, green/yellow.
At the time here in Oz, the mains wiring was still Red, black, and green. I had to completely rewire all the internal mains wiring because the hospitals, being very safety conscious insist on doing EVERYTHING strictly according to the rules at the time.
It was only a very few years after that, we adopted the European standard. The rules keep on changing, and its very difficult to keep up with it all unless you are doing this kind of work every day.Cheers, Tony.
Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 455
Posted: 05:57am 11 Oct 2021
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Hi Tony, I remember working on a machine made in Italy when I was a young tradesman. The builders of that machine used Red for earths. There were quite a few Red cables that were connected to the chassis of the machine. Strange that the industry in your case rely on all black cables. Seems that they can put coloured cables in when they want. I remember when we went over to the European colouring system. That was supposedly only for flexible cables, such as extension cords. We still use Black, Red and Green/Yellow for building wire Cheers Pete
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 06:06am 11 Oct 2021
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Its still a dog's breakfast Pete.
Blue can either be active or neutral.
If its a three phase supply Red/white/blue, or red/yellow blue are actives.
In an appliance blue/brown, blue is neutral.
If the "appliance" is three phase, blue can be either or both !!! Edited 2021-10-11 16:07 by WarpspeedCheers, Tony.
pd-- Senior Member Joined: 11/12/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 122
Posted: 12:08pm 14 Oct 2021
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What about the international standards treaty. if it is approved in your country it is now approved in our country.
Black = Active White = Neutral
is now very common in single phase AC units
Revlac Guru Joined: 31/12/2016 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1020
Posted: 01:38pm 14 Oct 2021
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Was also common with imported US 110Vac computer gear many years ago, 110v converters etc.
This labeling system for solar and battery systems can be misleading if someone in a hurry (emergency or something) has to turn the system or part of it, off or on......The amount of signage that is required can be difficult to interpret.....too much time can be wasted reading all the warnings and hazards to find the correct switch and sequence in which to operate it.
Having seen a few system's (grid tied system's) that have no way other than to be bogged in all the useless information before finding out what the switch Actually does, and the sequence it works with if any, the switches where positioned side by side with no visual indication or sensible position to indicate there purpose.
Most of us know what a light switch is just at a glance and in it's position, often no need for a label. Its easy to under stand a system with the solar input isolator mounted above all others, Inverter and power midway, battery isolator lower down, visually you could see whats what, without being bashed in the face with useless danger idiot signs. Signage should always be plain and simple to understand.Cheers Aaron Off The Grid
Godoh Guru Joined: 26/09/2020 Location: AustraliaPosts: 455
Posted: 09:40pm 14 Oct 2021
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I have not bothered to keep up with the newest standards since I retired. It used to be that wiring inside a switchboard or machine did not need to be colour coded. It was required by the supply authorities that Neutrals at neutral bars corresponded with the appropriated circuit breaker number. I made it a practice in the last few years of work to get white heatshrink, number it then shrink it onto the neutrals to mark them more clearly. It worked great. I did have installation inspectors tell me that they did not like it when there were two wires under one screw in links. They wanted each circuit to be able to be disconnected without disturbing any other circuits. I could understand that in a hospital that may be necessary but it was taking it a bit far in a house situation. It meant that for a group of circuits protected by an RDC, that a separate neutral bar was necessary or a neutral link that bolted into the bottom of the RDC was necessary. I found that it was possible to buy a three terminal connector that allowed three neutrals to be connected was available. Of course now that RCD/mcb's are cheap as chips, one just uses one per circuit. Glad that I am out of the industry, since the Standards Australia went commercial and now write standards to make money things have gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. Soon there will be a standard for a pencil sharpener. Pete
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 12:55am 15 Oct 2021
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And the thing will be like with solar, They will change the standards very regularly so 3 YO pencil sharpeners no longer meet standards and companies keep having to buy new ones even though the old ones were perfectly good and safe just a few years before but now supposedly present a danger to life and limb.
Did a solar setup with a friend last weekend. Had other sparky mate come in and wire up a 3 Phase outlet which had breakers from the sub board to the weatherproof box which had another set of breakers which I believe when I last looked at the standards is not Kosher.
Wired the inverter to OUR standards same as the panels. Another breech of standards as we did not individually earth them. If the metal screws into the metal brackets which were screwed to the metal roof of the building isn't enough, Bad luck. The inverter has inbuilt earth monitoring anyway as well as RCD's on the sub board. Dunno how much safer is it going to get.
Brand new old stock panels we used weren't up to current standards either because they only had 6 earthing holes not 8 even though only one is required to be used as an earth point. That's why they were dumped in the first place. No longer meet regs.
Save the environment and all that remember. Chuck out unused panels that have loads of energy, resources and emissions built in because they are a few holes short in the frame work. Same with the inverter, Brand new, thousands installed OEM up until a few years ago when they suddenly fell off the ( Paid to be on) approval list. Not dangerous for thousand's of them to remain installed but a danger to all and sundry to install a new one now. My supplier has a Couple of hundred of the things He brought in then the regs suddenly changed without warning.
Finished our install off,Stood back at the end and we were very happy with what we had done and commented the beauty of the whole exercise is that not being licenced from the start, we didn't have to bother with any of the rest of the BS. We over specced everything electrically and paid a lot more attention to detail than I have ever seen on a " Professional" install.
Turned it on late arvo, made 3.3 Kw straight off the bat, happy days!
The current version of AS3000 defines ELV as not greater than 120V ripple free DC or 50V AC. Its been that way for as long as I've been in the game, about 14 years. See section 1.4.128
Its the new AS5139 standard for fixed batteries that limits unlicensed work to less than 60vdc and less than than 1kwh storage capacity. However - AS5139 only applies to fixed installations, so as far as I understand the rules, but I'm not 100% sure, if the installation is not fixed, say in a trailer or caravan, an unlicensed individual could still work on a larger system, up 120vdc and greater than 1kwh of storage. At least until such time as they release a new standard for mobile installations with similar restrictions as AS5139.
Also, I've heard a rumour that with a bit of googling its possible to find a PDF of the latest AS3000 with out the need to pay Standards Australia an extortionate fee. Of course, I've never tested that theory myself.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 04:14am 01 Nov 2021
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Thanks Jacob. I guess I will have to fit some wheels to my new fork lift battery when it arrives.Cheers, Tony.
Murphy's friend Guru Joined: 04/10/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 648
Posted: 09:12am 01 Nov 2021
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That is a good idea Tony, I'm planning to make a cabinet on wheels for my lithium battery bank. A big battery on wheels has the advantage to move it if one has to work on it.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 10:58am 01 Nov 2021
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Buy a crappy old forklift and have it fitted. :0) Be very interested to see what you do with the fork Pack Tony.
I told the guy in the parts shop across the road from me about the same thing years ago. He had a 40 footer behind his shop for storage. Pain in the arse Neighbour was complaining about it and Council said he couldn't have it.
My wife whom was running the relevant council Division said put wheels on the thing and call it a trailer and they can't do squat. Told the guy and he was wrapped. They lifted it with a tow truck, welded wheels and hubs on it and that was it. Council trouble maker came along, guy said we are making it a trailer.
Inspector complained to my Mrs about it and she said Drop it, if it has wheels nothing the council could do.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 09:15pm 01 Nov 2021
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I think some kind of wheels would be a necessity anyway just to move it into position.
I need two as my system here is 100 volts. Its a big purchase, and total financial folly, but I just cannot help myself.
Even if the sun never rises at all for seven to ten days I should have all the power I normally ever use without a care in the world.Cheers, Tony.
Davo99 Guru Joined: 03/06/2019 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1578
Posted: 02:58am 02 Nov 2021
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I think they generally go about 1100 Kg. A forklift would be a useful thing. One battery IN the fork to move the other pack around.
Yeah well, there is the satisfaction value and what price you put on that? I do things for that alone and can't say I have ever regretted it. Every time I think I did go a bit over the top with something things happen and all the sudden it becomes a smart decision that I was glad I made.
Is Tony's big battery something you want to do mainly out of interest or desire to be independent or because you have concerns about reliability of supply or other related issues with the grid?
I am feeling the same compulsion. No financial benefit what so ever to get batteries but the desire for independence and paranoia of what is to come is getting to me. I have made a few bucks lately unexpectedly and I am looking to buy one of those Hybrid inverters. I Might run it just off some car batteries for the time being, mainly just so I can power it up, learn how to program it etc and understand what I can do with them and their limitations.
I spoke to my Neighbour yesterday. I knew he worked in the power industry but I asked him what he did specifically. Until he recently retired, he was in charge of all distribution in this sector, quite a large area.
I asked him what he thought of all the latest Ra Ra with zero emissions and getting rid of all the coal stations. He said we are headed for BIG trouble. he said if they take any of the coal stations down without replacing them with another coal station there will be rolling blackouts and outages for days when things get bad. He said we are not near ready for Renewables in that the technology isn't up to scratch yet for our conditions and it will be at least 20 years before it has a hope.
He went on and elaborated different things about pumped hydro and the short comings of other storage and generation but the bottom line was after a career in designing grid systems, he's designed his own off grid system for where they are moving next year. The place is grid connected but he has zero faith in reliability of supply anywhere.
Will you hook your Generator up to run on gas to recharge your batteries if you have to Tony?
The thing is even with Cloudy weather, You still most likely will get 1 Days power generation into the batteries every 3-5 so your endurance will be extended somewhat beyond the straight capacity of the batteries.
Warpspeed Guru Joined: 09/08/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 4406
Posted: 03:18am 02 Nov 2021
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At the moment its like owning a really nice car that only has a one gallon fuel tank.
More than enough panels, a really nice big inverter, and I have enough battery for one night only. If the following day is totally cloudy I am screwed.
If there are ten sunny days in a row, and one cloudy day, I am still screwed.
So a bigger battery is in order. Lithium is just too damned expensive. I can get five times the capacity per dollar from a fork lift battery.
With the worlds biggest battery, it should never need assistance from a generator. If it ever does, more panels should fix it. But right now my batteries are fully recharged by about 9am, and everything after that is just wasted.Cheers, Tony.
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