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Forum Index : Solar : Solar bonus , see the light not the dark!
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fillm Guru  Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi all , I have just had a 1kw system installed and is about to be turned on this friday , I have paid extra for an extra Pve Edge inverter that will allow me to connect my wind gens through the use of a small 48v batt bank , but getting back to subject to why I decided to outlay the investment of $4650 to the Govts $8000 . Firstly all my calc's were done before all the carry on about the 44c per Kw which some are so confused about and I have only heard that this would be the tarrif on excess above what your house uses over a billing period , it is definatly better than 7 to 8c which is the current excess price , so to me that is a bonus but I will never get there as my house with all its inefficiencies and power guzzelers swallow up the 1kw system . But buy producing 5 to 7 Kw a day to ofset my power bill so 7 x .17c ( approx Kw at present )= $ 1.19 x 120 days = $140 x 4 = $571 saving on elec bills per year which equates to a return of 12.5% and pay the investment of in 5 to 6 years BUT with rising energy costs where are power costs per Kw going to be in 2 to 3 years , do you think that a company that can produce solar panels at 1/2 the cost at present are going to pass the saving on or decide to make massive profits for the directors and shareholders , but by installing now I have hedged part of my power bill for the next 25 years and I think is a the best way to look at the $8000 rebate scheme . The other things one would have to take into consideration would be maintence on the inverter an unknown factor with electronics , hopefully by choosing the Latronics PVE 1200 which is a Brisbane company there will be good back up , fingers crossed.. Also while having the system installed I had the second Inverter installed which as mentioned is connected to a batt bank and 4 x 80 watt panels which will keep the inverter connected to the grid during the sun hours which then leaves a balance of 800w that can be feed in from my wind gen hobby so at least with what ever I am mucking arround with as long as it is above 54v it is going against my electricty bill.. So all in all I think the Govt rebate does have its merrits and as for the QLD $1000 for 1000w scheme has only been released to keep QLD in good bar graph levels that are not way below the other states but what I have heard from the solar company that installed my system is that the $8000 fund has a bottom and a hit of 1000 x 8000 makes a big dint and it is already running years ahead of budget ... Forget the 44c unless you are installing 2.5Kw or more or can run your house on below 5 to 7 Kw a day... Anyway I'll leave it there as hopfully I will have pics and more of a write up to post next week as I have been working to this day for a year and a bit with the help of the members and the infomation on this site....Regards...Phill PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| brucedownunder2 Guru Joined: 14/09/2005 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1548 |
Good on you Phill You certainly have come a long way in just over a year. Bruce Bushboy |
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| petanque don Senior Member  Joined: 02/08/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 212 |
I think the in feed tariff depends on your day time use. If you have a household were nobody is home during the day there is likely to be more electricity fed back into the grid. On the 12.5% investment this assumes that there is no maintenance on the system. Does the inverter come with a 25 year guarantee? Also many people have a mortgage. So if you are borrowing money at 10% to get a 12.5% return won’t make you a millionaire and extend the payback period considerably. If you have a credit card you may be paying more like 18% to borrow money to get a 12.5% return and the investment will only decrease your wealth. If you would be financially better off to just buy green electricity would depend on many things. But there is more to life than just financial considerations. I have ordered a 1 Kw system for my house and I should have it for the end of the financial year. |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Hi Don , I did make the point on maintence being an unknown factor, one point I did forget to metion was the solar rec's you get for a 1kw system which I think is 20 , these are like shares and I think have reached $30 to $40 recently , you can sell them or hold till a better price is reached , I have heard they could go as high as $100 in a year or so , that then puts another big dint in the initial outlay cost... As for borring to install a 1 kw system ,the points you have high lighted to put it on a credit card at 18% intrest , well if any one is even thinking on those lines is absurd , even to buy green electricty at a higher rate if you are paying a substantial morgage is really not sensible in todays ecconomic enviroment.. I only wanted to high light the the research I tried to cover to see if a 1 kw system is a good investment but some hear 44c per Kw and think the can make a living and when it's not as it seems , then get upset and confused when it is just govt's looking like they are trying to be green .For the lucky people who can afford large systems or the people who can reduce their daily power use to keep constantly under the output of a 1 kw system ( and do not have to borrow the setup cost ) are the winners ... Phill.. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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AMUN-RA Senior Member Joined: 10/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 144 |
Hope you have all installed solar hot water first or are you just keeping it as a giant dump load for your 1kw solar power system Mick Every day the sun shines & gravity sucks= free energy. |
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GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Interested Forum Readers, This is only related to S.Aust. Other states have yet to confirm a scheme. I have posted a chart showing actual and predicted credits for a grid connected solar of now 2.4kW installed capacity. The data is from Nov 2006 until today and predicted to August 2009. The predicted is based on past monthly averages for the last couple of years. The red asterix's indicate the quarterly billing time. The $ line is the result of the fixed qurterly fee plus an incremental daily credit/debit, that either deducts, or adds to this amount. We currently are in credit,[negative numbers], and this has been the last 2 year average. When the 44c/unit buyback comes into effect, the credit will increase significantly,[as indicated by the graph]. I have negotiated a payment to be made when the credit is above $100 in a billing period. 
My household consumption consumes about 10% of my peak generating capacity. This will enable me to sell most of my power at the 44c/unit rate. The maximum benefit only occurs as I have reduced my total grid consumption. I was not prepared to sacrifice lifestyle though. Others may be able to achieve an even more favourable result with only a 1kW system. I have found that my windmill produces a more average, [over the whole day] output. This power is not really exported, but is consumed within my house by the base load. I am hoping that my second windmill will contribute more to the base load, so that nearly all of the solar can be exported. The maximum benefit from the 44c/unit buyback rate will come from a system where the majority of power is exported compared to the base load of the house. There will of course be no 44c/unit benefit if the base load is the same as the max generated capacity. There is always a benefit overall by reducing demands on fossil fuel though.... Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| AMUN-RA Senior Member Joined: 10/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 144 |
Gordan loooks like the Qld model will be good as the amendments to the act read if at any instant power is fed into the grid that power will be worth 44c this is not exactly what we wanted but its a step in the right direction.dont ring ergon they still wont give a very positive answer if you want info contact the dept,of mines and energy they will give you the latest info for north Qld.If in t'nsville area contact me 1300551491 MICK Every day the sun shines & gravity sucks= free energy. |
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| GWatPE Senior Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2127 |
Hi Mick, I was told that the reason for only paying on exported power was that this gave the consumer/supplier more incentive to try and reduce the import amount. If the calculation was on total generated capacity, then there would be less incentive to export as much as possible. I think I remember reading that the German model was a reduced unit payment on the total generated. I have been told that the 44c will be in addition to the unit cost being paid by the utility. Has anyone confirmation of this? .. .. Gordon. become more energy aware |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Mick , In repily to installing a solar hot water system to remove my giant dump load , after the Grid/solar PV system has produced 2 to3kw it has basicly paid the hot water bill on tarrif 33@ .0928c per kwh for the day , the 300ltr electric at the time we built this house was $1500 cheaper than solar with the rebate , thats 16,163kwh or 7.3yrs at 6kw a day of tarrif 33 , of course I would have liked to install it at that time but my experence with solar systems on the market today is that they are not as $ frendly as made out to be . I have had solarhart jaketed systems out in our house in a mining town west of mackay , over 400 systems were installed by the company 15 or so yrs ago , nearly all are not in service today , the outer tank case rusts out due to th 3 psi relief valve failing and allowing air into it , I rebuilt mine and installed a heada tank to allow the fluid to expand and contract into , the other main failure is the o-rings allowing the fluid to leak , you then if you cant do it yourself have to get someone to repair and service the system , then when the system is cactus the govt rebate does not appily , if on a high block house you need crane hire and the list goes on . Most are now electric hot water tanks on the roof . On the other hand my father built his own solar hot system in 1964 probably one of the first in Nth Qld and used a jacket chip heater as back up for winter and cloudy days . As a lad i used to delight in stoking it with coal from the railway and boiling the hell out of the main tank . He went to electric in 2000 and had 36 years of free hot water , when his first power bill came in with the elect system he basicly said "why bother" ..The tank and copper collecter are still in workable condition if any one wants them As I recently looked into retro fitting my elect with solar glass tubes , at $3000+ it still doesn't come in as good economics . For me having a house with 70+ lights , 50 which are halogen the best thing I could spend my money on to reduce the 20c per kwh is 1000 to 2000 $ worth of LED replacement bulbs and have 25yrs of low cost lighting instead of a solar hot water system that would most likley need X amount of $ in authorised maintainence and parts to keep its warranty alive . Or build myself another couple of windmills , this sounds like more fun to me ..... PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| AMUN-RA Senior Member Joined: 10/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 144 |
phill the feed in tariff reads that at any instant during the day the power you feed into the grid is worth 44c so if you can arrange to heat your water in the evening and transfer other high use activities to outside the solar window you will feed in 7kwh each day witch is worth $3.08 per day which makes everything look a bit better, thats my take on it if you need info call the dept of mines and energy they will give you the answers or I can email you a copy of the proposed ammendments to the electricity act for QLD Mick Every day the sun shines & gravity sucks= free energy. |
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dazler Newbie  Joined: 21/10/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 37 |
good news Brumby Government is going to have a 60c feed-in tariff. but if u had a 1kw system and used 10kwh per day, this does not matter, it could be 1000c per kwh?? http://www.envict.org.au/inform.php?item=1797 daz |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Mick , Yea , I have heard about the new day rate proposed and it is definatly looks to be a better deal , but the way I understood it was that during day light hours the 44c only applies to excess power above what the house is using , this would need some pretty fancy meter ( timed metering ) that is not available as yet acording to the energex guy who did the meter change here , but this could have been changed as it seems to every second day . Anyway I hope you are right with your info... It appears Daz you have your hands on some info I can't make head nor tail of from land " far far away !!"  PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| AMUN-RA Senior Member Joined: 10/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 144 |
act anounced the other day they will go for 60c and thats great why dosen't qld follow their lead. fhill what does your meter looklike is it a digital one with lcd screen from my understanding they can be reprogramed to do whatever is needed. we only have ergon in north qld as others have not come this far north Mick. Daz hope you get that tarrif it would mean we get paid a fair price for the clean energy tha we produce  Every day the sun shines & gravity sucks= free energy. |
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| petanque don Senior Member Joined: 02/08/2006 Location: AustraliaPosts: 212 |
I think it must depend on the digital meter. The person that quoted my system said it had to be replaced and that they didn’t cope well with current running into the grid. I live in SA and the meter is about 12 years old. |
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| dazler Newbie Joined: 21/10/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 37 |
Amun ra, fillm, i hope that we "get paid a fair price" but thats net metering. i think Vic Government is going to use gross metering, which means for a 1kw solar system would make 4.1kwh per day (Victoria get about 4.1 hours a day sunlight). and my home users about 9.4kwh per day. so i would make about 4.1kwh or 46% of my power bill. lets hope for the net metering! fillm i meant as above i would not get the feed-in-tariff, so i could be 90c or $1.50 per kwh. daz |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Mick / daz As I have based all my initial figures on the base rate of 17 to 20c per kwh any extra that comes along is a bonus , like the renuable energy certificates which hit $48 recently , for a 1kw system I recieve 21 ( $1000 ) which when I claim them I will buy LED replacement bulbs for the most used halogen lights in my house , hopefully these will keep going up as is the kw buy back price . The meter installed at my house is a new digital type EM 1000 as in pic below .. 
They also replaced my main meter with a new flash digital one , it can be accessed by tele something , he was nearly going to install one as the solar metering as well at $500 a shot, as these meters can do both .. Anyway I hope a fair price and a fair way of metering is struck as soon as possible but for the elec authorities to have to go and retro fit a couple of thousand meters is big dollars , who is going to pay for that , not them !!!! PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| dazler Newbie Joined: 21/10/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 37 |
PHILL is renuable energy certificates (REC) an ongoing yearly payment think?, as the company energymatters said they will take the REC and the bonus of 8k, off my hands to fast track the install. which then i pay the rest. ps. doh dont get to see your meter run backwards... daz |
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| fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Daz , The REC's are like shares , they can go up and down . A year ago when I first started doing my research on the grid tie systems they were at $25 - $30 ea , now at $45 to $48 a few weeks back . The only draw back is that you are not actually holding a share certificate as such but the recipt from the company who did the install is the proof , hence that is why you have to have an acredited installer do the work . Be carefull on what they say the rebate on the REC's are and they are not ripping you off , if it's energymatters/renuablenergystore in Melb talk to Matt Lions he is pretty switched on with everything and has done a lot with F&P stuff. If you do not need the extra off the total cost at present then I have heard the REC's could go as high as $100 over the next year, but by the installers keeping the REC's bundled into the total cost it can make it seem cheap compared to other Quotes , ask for a break down , how many REC's I get and value , then make a decission on them .. They are a one off claim .. PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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KarlJ Guru Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
I have a solution for your "dump load" I converted my hot water to evacuated tubes MYSELF, piece of cake takes a day of tinkering $1300-$1350 gets you a 20 tube x1800mm long x58mm diameter tube system complete with controller, out another $80 for the 850kpa pressure relief valve $120 odd in copper pipe handful of fittings and armourflex pipe insulation call it $300 in hardware, uses your existing tank and WORKS! only this week have i needed to turn on the gas (my unit is gas storage) to boost. For electric units the controller will turn it on and off for you. Cannot recommend it highly enough -i've now done one for the farm and one for my sister-hers faces dead west and still has a useful energy input, far one facing dead north will boil 300l of water if left for three days truly remarkable. Luck favours the well prepared |
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| Jon Bennett Newbie Joined: 01/11/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 27 |
Fillm Does the em1000 meter power in both directions or is one meter for imported power and one meter for exported power? thanks jon |
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