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Forum Index : Solar : Storing Electricity
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MacGyver Guru  Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Crew I'm posting this here, because I don't actually know where it belongs and this is as good a place as any, I suppose. Yes, I'm still building windmills and such, but our common problem is storage. After we make electricity, how do we EFFECTIVELY store it? I'm currently delving back into my hydrogen-generating days (which I promised my wife I would never do again, since it prompted a call from our local police bomb squad -- but I'm divorced now, so it's okay, right?) Anyway, I have constructed a device, which very efficiently separates hydrogen and oxygen from water SAFELY using solar (PV) panels. The problem I now have is ----------------STORAGE. What do I do with all this hydrogen? Anybody know how to SAFELY store and burn the stuff without creating a hazard? . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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fillm Guru Joined: 10/02/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 730 |
Google Hydrogen fuel cells, funny but had a guy lob onto my door step last week all pumped up about a " Revolutionary" new hydrogen fuel cell he and his mate have developed. Also he explained that they had just recently had a stint in hospital after it blew up due to incorrect flash back arrestors, he had very bad burns to his stomach and his mate lesser burns. Police , bomb squad , news cams apparently all were there, so now his mates wife has banned them from playing with this new toy. Anyway after a long discussion and coming to the conclusion that he has no viable storage then its back to the drawing board and a new location.... I declined . What sticks in my memory apart from the obvious, he is 75 looks 60 and rides a Honda Gold Wing ... 
Be Safe Mac PhillM ...Oz Wind Engineering..Wind Turbine Kits 500W - 5000W ~ F&P Dual Kits ~ GOE222Blades- Voltage Control Parts ------- Tower kits |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
fillm Ya; been there -- done exactly that (without injury). I've successfully stored it under water, but since hydrogen "burns" optimally at 4% oxidation, even a tiny 'air' leak can be the recipe for disaster. Drilling an orifice tiny enough to use natural aspiration is a bit of a walk on the wild side as well. Ultimately, I'd like to use the hydrogen to burn in a stove to heat my house and barn, but so far, aside from myself being actually genetically related to the large, flightless bird known as a chicken, and having been perhaps overly cautious with the stuff, I have yet to find safe, reasonable a way to use it. Making hydrogen is a cake walk. Using the gas is a nightmare. I should point out one thing here: I make pure hydrogen and not "Brown's Gas" which is oxidized at 200% and IS DEFINITELY A BOMB! The contraption I use to separate the two constituents of water is nearly the same thing used on submarines, to manufacture breathable air under water. Mine is made of plastic, stainless steel and aluminum. The "trick" is the electrolyte. After years of personal research, I finally cracked that nut, but I won't be sharing it freely, simply because "Brown's Gas" is what most folks will make and this electrolyte is a true catalyst (does not get consumed in the reaction) and makes instant Brown's Gas unless one takes precautions against it. The two product gasses don't just bubble up on the electrodes. This catalyst causes both gasses to "boil" off profusely. Production is a product of amperage as well. Not being stingey, just cautious. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
My understanding was hydrogen as a pure source was very stable, its the HHO2 that is unstable. Are you sure its pure hydrogen as the process sounds a bit black magic to me and would think you still have mixed gasses. Come on Mac spill the beans on the full process of how it works so we can see what gasses you are producing. There is a lot of bullsh*t on the net about hydrogen so don't be another adding to it. The question is ..... is hydrogen a exploding gas or a imploding gas? Pete. Sometimes it just works |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Pete When I'm sure I can handle the stuff safely, I'll let the cat out of the bag. Like I said earlier on, when I was in the military, I had a chance to visit the engineering space of a submarine and saw the device used to separate the two gasses in water. I know I have pure hydrogen and oxygen. The "mixture" if it happens at all, is vented to the atmosphere. The physical design of the device assures that. I wasn't able to take apart the contraption on the submarine, so I further devised a way to capture surges at each electrode. I've piped off the waste gas from the mixed vent and tried igniting it, since it would be basically "Brown's Gas" and it does not burn, so I'm sure my device separates each gas in its pure state. That said, like I said above, as soon as I can present a SAFE way to store and use the hydrogen, I'll let said cat out of said bag. I was hoping someone on the 4m might have experience in storage, handling and burning of pure hydrogen. I have a friend, who works for Praxair here in the States and he may be able to shed some light on things. He lives on the farm to the north of my place. When I crack the nut, I'll share. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| iflewmyown Newbie  Joined: 18/03/2013 Location: United StatesPosts: 1 |
There was a French fellow named Jean Paine I believe who stored hydrogen for many years in tractor tire inner tubes. That let it stay pressurized and safer to feed thru orifices with a constant pressure. Also in India there are many methane digesters with dome shaped lids whose weight provides constant pressure. Your neighbor in Oklahoma. Garry |
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Gizmo Admin Group  Joined: 05/06/2004 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5078 |
The problem with storing hydrogen is it leaks. The molecules are so small, nothing can contain it for any length of time. Even Helium is hard to store, ever noticed how a helium filled balloon is empty after a couple of days. The best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, the second best time is right now. JAQ |
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| MacGyver Guru Joined: 12/05/2009 Location: United StatesPosts: 1329 |
Hmmmmmmm I think I will just go on building air pumps and storing the wind energy as compressed air. I know it's droll, but hey, it works. Over the years, I have developed a rather robust "positive-displacement" turbine, which uses way less compressed air to achieve a spinning platform. Don't get overly crazy about this. It's merely a mutation of a peristaltic pump, more or less. What I do is build a balanced wheel, which has what amounts to several rollers about its circumfrence. The wheel containing the rollers is positioned so as to "pinch" a small portion of tubing. As the compressed air expands inside the flexible tubing, the roller is pushed forward until it reaches such a position that it exhausts its little spurt of air, then the wheel behind it takes over and the process repeats. Don't laugh. They spin like hell and are VERY powerful. I merely connect the shaft of the turbine to an alternator and you can figure out the rest of the story. . . . . . Mac Nothing difficult is ever easy! Perhaps better stated in the words of Morgan Freeman, "Where there is no struggle, there is no progress!" Copeville, Texas |
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| isochronic Guru Joined: 21/01/2012 Location: AustraliaPosts: 689 |
If the hydrogen and oxygen can be stored ok...and a steam turbine/engine is being used anyway....the steam could be reheated by burning some hyd/ox/steam mix in-situ , thereby the contained heat would be recycled instead of wasted in the exhaust.. a sort of diesel steam cycle, maybe even some stirling cycle could be incorporated :). Recycle them gas power stations !! Not as efficient as batteries though. |
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| Georgen Guru Joined: 13/09/2011 Location: AustraliaPosts: 462 |
Water pumped to high storage can be used in turbine as source of stored energy at any time. George |
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| Downwind Guru Joined: 09/09/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 2333 |
Perphas you could try a new idea and make electrical power and store it in batteries, from my understanding it is not yet a true tested theory by the masses. You might find a few problems to overcome like being the most effective method of energy storage at the lowest cost. You also might find it to actually work, and to a mass scale that is suitable to both solar and wind energy storage. well worth a try. Push bike pumps driven by wind energy i think are being reviewed by NASSA for a solution to solve the worlds energy problems, so perhaps you might well be a leader in the field of solving the worlds energy problems without really knowing it, keep up the R&D. Sometimes it just works |
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| Pete Locke Senior Member  Joined: 26/06/2013 Location: New ZealandPosts: 181 |
Interesting though, Many years ago I did a trip to the Chatham Islands for two weeks. Back in the day when weather balloons preempted satellite pictures of the atmosphere happenings. Being so remote, helium transport for the balloons wasn't feasible. So they made their own hydrogen for the task. Pretty much battery type banks with the gas split off. The hydrogen went to a tank with a bladder lining, and the O2 was vented. A small pump would be used to move the hydrogen into the balloon, and the left overs....well maybe all O2 wasn't vented :-). Some of the best fire balls I've yet to see bettered. Not relevant to the thread, but if I can locate some of the old pictures I'll bung them on for a giggle. |
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