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Forum Index : Solar : The basics (noobie warning)
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| madivad Newbie  Joined: 02/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5 |
Howdy everybody, I've newly begun thinking about a solar installation and after one of the federal sprookers just left my place I spent a bit of time talking about it with the old man (who's looked into it for a little time). He's told me about this forum, but I'm still confused. Welcome to my life ;-) 1. I read everywhere about rebates (and the general figure is about $7000), but this isn't a direct rebate from the government upon installation, is it? 1a. I see it as a result of collecting RECs over a period of x amount of days? at 1.5KWH you would need to produce 7 good hours a day (which is 10.5KWH) which would take 1,000KWH/10.5KWH or 100 days (give or take) to accrue just one REC. My thinking is on track, or not? 1b. It doesn't matter if you install greater than 1.5KWH system, since it's only the first 1.5KWH that matters... But obviously if you install smaller is does reduce the effect of the rebate? 1c. Currently what does one REC go for? Is that the $7000 I am reading? (IF I am close so far - which I think I am not, does that mean the govt will give me $7000 every 100 days, reduced by the multiplier of course)? 2. I currently have the old power meter and am on 15 cents per KWH (although I believe it went up yesterday). To go solar, I need to upgrade the meter to the new smart meter. If I do nothing this will be installed at any rate and I won't pay for it, but if I go solar, I will need to have this installed at which time I have to cover the cost? And is this a significant cost? 3. I'm looking to go for a 4KWH system (or there abouts), based on the current thinking: I currently use almost 20KWH per day, if we get 5 hours of good sunshine at 4KWH, I am covering the cost of my electricity. I would now be in credit with the provider (making a profit?). Is this income and is it taxed? 4. Would anyone recommend just going for the entry level 1.5KWH system? I'd only be making 10KWH per day (on a good day) making 10KWH per day at $6 (at current rate in NSW) and I'm only using 20KWH at 15 cents - however this would go up to 32 cents with the smart meter, so I would be using $6.40... roughly breaking equal... 5. I'm trying to research these grid tie inverters and finding the cost fluctuates all over the net. a 5000W tie ranging from $2000 to over $5000. How can I be sure that what am buying will be certifiable under the current requirements? (I know I could just get an installer to do the lot, but I would like to manage this a little myself - which I guess a lot of people do here) 6. Are the RECs THAT hard to manage? It seems everyone wants to manage them for you (and take a healthy cut). I'm thinking there's not too much more to it than taking meter readings and plugging them into a spreadsheet or two. 7. Grid tie inverters can be hooked up in parallel? Is there benefit/bonus to doing this or should one just buy the biggest and greatest one could afford from the outset? I'm really sorry for the basic and many questions, but basically I just need to know, am I ont he right track? Regards Dave |
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| neil0mac Senior Member  Joined: 26/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 210 |
No. No. It is based on a formula from orer.gov.au web sitebvfor the 'nominal' size of the system installed. No. It is for up to 10KW, soon tpo be 2okw SIZED SYSTEMS. No. See URL above. The county council bears the cost of the meter. You will be up for a few hundred dollars for the installation. Depends where you are. Yes, to both. I don't think that smart meters are part of the equation. Now' gross meters' are - used to measure power supplied to t he grid. The county council has to 'certify' the meter with info provided by the manufacturer. Not a simple operation. True. Not even close. Installer advice needed. Dave |
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AMUN-RA Senior Member Joined: 10/03/2007 Location: AustraliaPosts: 144 |
rec is also dependent on which area you are in at the moment solar rec are trading @36.00 as of monday this is through green-bank.com.au 1.5 kw system about 6-7 kwh per day on a good day. Every day the sun shines & gravity sucks= free energy. |
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| madivad Newbie Joined: 02/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5 |
thanks for the answers, both of you. I had a look at that site you suggested nick, yeah, ok, talk about confusing. I see where I got the 1.5 & 10kW stuff mixed up though. Although I still don't understand it at this point. Possibly by the end of this post some of it will be clearer. Amun, is that $36? or are we talking some other electricity currency that i need to learn about? And nick, now you have really got me going, I'm more at a loss in some areas... like: Firstly, found this: [quote]No. of RECs = [(1.5) X Postcode Zone Rating X Multiplied Value in Table C X (Deeming period) ] + [ (Rated power output (in kw) minus 1.5) X Postcode Zone Rating X (Deeming period) ][/quote] from http://siliconsolarfence.com/how-to-calculate-the-solar-pane l-rebate/ (don't try the caluclator, it doesn't work - I think they'll send an email but not about to chance spam from them!) Using the above: 1.5 (KW system) x 3 (I'm zone 3) x 5 (multiplier) x 15 (years) = 337.5 If a REC is worth $36 then am I entitled to a 'rebate' of over $12K? If my numbers are out/wrong/misinformed can someone give me some examples? On this site green-bank.com.au (thanks Amun-ra) they talk about RECs being paid in blocks of 5 years or a one off for 15 years (only available if installed by certain bodies - http://green-bank.com.au/faq <-- another good reference). Is there more of a benefit one way or the other? ie, What's the key difference between selling them now once under the 15 years block, under the 5 year block, or individually? (based on the info above, I'd think that doing it once in a block would be easier!) When I was talking about smart meters, I was referring mainly to the cost of electricity as it stands now. Currently I am paying 15c per KWH (domestic rate), but I believe that cost will go up to 32c per KWH (in Peak rate) when I have the new meter installed. I also hear that I may not be eligible for offpeak hotwater anymore as well. The basic premise of question 4 was simply if I use 20KWH per day, and I produce 10KWH per day using a 1.5KW system, is THAT the system I should be going for? Or should I go for as much as I can afford (and pay the tax on the additional income?) About installation: I'm not referring to doing the installation myself, I'm not that good. I would just like to not be ripped off by going with an all-in-one package. In relation to calculating the RECs yourself, how much harder is it that the formula above and some paperwork? ie, Nick, can you define "Not even close"? TAX: The taxing comment opens up so many more questions, and I'm not an accountant, so I'm probably speaking out my bum here, but if I earn an income from a capital expense and pay tax on that income, then am I able to claim associated costs to earn that income? eg, installation? upkeep (is there any/much)? repair as required? If you take out a loan for the purchase of the equipment, is the loan interest then tax deductible? Is there a depreciation factor? I was just about to post this and I'm re-reading it and getting more confused... In doing some research it seems I may be mixing up RECs and Solar Credits... This is what you get for trying to learn it all in a few hours! This isn't easy... but it is fun! lol |
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| neil0mac Senior Member Joined: 26/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 210 |
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| madivad Newbie Joined: 02/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5 |
Neil, you're not really helping, can you be more specific? I say this in reference to your comments: [quote]The 'official' fprmula is found on the government page I gave you. Go look again. [/quote] and [quote]Again, see above. Use the lower set of figures on that site. [/quote] for instance, the only reference to any link you have in your post is: orer.gov.au Mate I have spent a lot of time ON that page, and it's just as confusing as before. I have looked at it and tried to comprehend that page, some of the links from that page and then even some of the PDFs from those links form that page. I must not be seeing what you're seeing. Please provide a link to what it is you're talking about. I don't see any figures or formulas at all :-( In fact the only formula is their calculator which is only part of the equation. this is what I am seeing: 
[quote]You can lose anything from 30 - 50 percent in 'system losses'. [/quote] ahh yes, I hadn't considered that! I was reminded of this just today in electric transformers (for LED lighting and halogens etc)... [quote]It also requires become a registered trader. [/quote] I've only partly looked at this one and don't see any real issues other than the "protractedness" of it... Anyway the jury's still out, I'll come back to this one. [quote]Unless you have a 'mate' who isx an aller, you don't stand a chance[/quote] ??? I think you mean installer? yes? I don't see a problem here and in fact see it as being very similar to going to a mechanic and saying "I want you to install this [engine-component] and here is the one I want you to use" I think there's enough installers that if one won't use custom parts, that another one will. |
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| madivad Newbie Joined: 02/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5 |
Ahh yes, tax time! I might have to ask my accountant some short and curlies this year ;-) |
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| neil0mac Senior Member Joined: 26/12/2009 Location: AustraliaPosts: 210 |
On the above page, there is a link to Small Generation Units. http://orer.gov.au/sgu/index.html Click on the RECs tab. Simple. |
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| madivad Newbie Joined: 02/07/2010 Location: AustraliaPosts: 5 |
GREAT LINK! Thanks Neil. I'm actually in the part about doing it yourself, doesn't look too hard (he coughs) ;-) If anyone can help, if you trade the RECs for the 15 year deeming period you can only do it the once. If you do it every 5 years, you can do it more than 3 times... correct? How many times is the max? 4? or more? Will RECs exist beyond 2020? Obviously you need the extra certification for the 15 year deeming, but after August everyone needs that anyway (if installed after August, that is)... When it comes to the deeming period multiplier, the table heading is "Installation date". If you go the 5 year deeming periods, the multiplier extends to the 'date of installation', not the date of the deeming period and hence all deeming period will have the x5 multiplier. Is that correct? |
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KarlJ Guru  Joined: 19/05/2008 Location: AustraliaPosts: 1178 |
The 5x multiplier for the RECS only applies to the first 1.5KW and at 15 year deeming period. claiming the additional RECS at 5 year deeming period in my opinion is a good idea BUT the drawback is most (all?) REC traders wont do it. -i couldnt find one. "too hard". 4kw is a good size and will make a decent chunk out of the 20KW use, the FIT and useage you have will more than likely give you a bill in credit. I recommend the following setup. as is basically what i've done each of these two systems must be on its own aspect (face to the sun) every 22deg represents a 10-15% knockdown over "ideal" outputs. Roof inclination should agaain ideally be close to latitude (30-40deg pitch) here is the spec / shopping list. 2x CMS 2000 inverters / Orion 2KW -(Transformerless (TL) type inverters generally at least 10% more efficient) Due to their design, lend themselves well to an oversized array as they can wind back the current by increasing the voltage away from the MPP. (max power point) thus will always do their best and on the 5% of the time that conditions are perfect they wont break -should you stay within the guidelines of how its done. -Note only inverters that are on the CEC list of approved inverters can be used anyway. 28x 170-190W panels (not sunpowers as they need a pos earth which TL cant do. look for a price under or as close to $3/Watt as you can find -there are MANY to choose from. Mono- best output for space but temp derating at 0.5% per degree of temp rise Poly - not quite as good for space but temp derating 0.4% per degree temp rise. Thin film -double the space of mono but temp derating at 0.30-0.35% per degree. Thus if you can get at the right price and have acres of roof thin film is the way to go. I went mono to remove any shading issues as shading drops panel outputs to almost nothing, regardless of diodes etc (again less with thin film panels) I went for cheap panels and got 185W Mono's for under $550 each. so 14 per inverter in two strings of 7 this (at 185W) gives 2590W. Be careful here -some states is a panel limit for Feed in tarrif other states is inverter limit. EG Vic 5000W panels and you'd be blown at 5180W thus you would aim for 28x 175W panels. In WA you would go for 190W panels (again if the price is right) and end up at 5320W. Racking-think $3-400 per KW.(mono) BTW 4.44KW is worth 216RECS in Perth, thus a little under $8K. If you're in NSW then go hard at 0.60c gross feed in an 10KW limit (and if you have the roof space) then CMS 10000 (need three phase power) is about $4K trade and 10KW panels are going to set you back in the order of $30K so call it $40K all up less 10-12K rebate. With FIT at that rate 40-50KW/day pay back is $11K /year so in 3 years the thing is making you a killing. Not too many investments that cant be taken away from you being paid back at 25%p.a. Get cracking! Luck favours the well prepared |
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